How is Steal Skill supposed to work?

[JulianLW]

If this is too much of a copy and paste for the forums, I'm happy to delete the post, but I am puzzled about the intent for Steal Skill.

It takes a minute to cast: is the caster grappling the subject? It says "neither character can do anything for [the one minute] duration." How does the caster prevent the subject from acting? If it automatically stops the subject from acting, then isn't that a more valuable effect than stealing a skill? Does the caster have to knock the subject out first? The example only confuses the issue here, it seems to me.

Also, is that minimum cost of 10 an error? Am I missing errata for this? What if the subject only has one point in the skill?

Has anyone house ruled any of this? Is there an alternative version of this spell anywhere that makes more sense?

This is the text for Steal Skill in 4E Magic:

"Steal Skill (VH)

"Regular; Resisted by Will

"Transfers one skill from the subject to the caster. The caster must touch the subject and hold on to him for the entire casting time; neither character can do anything for that duration. The outcome of the struggle (i.e., the resistance roll) remains unknown until the casting is complete. The caster may abort his casting at any time; the energy is still spent.

"The caster gains the skill as if he had himself spent the character points stolen from the subject. This spell can be used to steal spells.

"If the victim had other skills based on the stolen one, he retains them fully, but the loss of a prerequisite causes a -2 penalty to skill use.

"Example: Severin wishes to sell some ill-gotten gains, but lacks much in the way of business sense. To remedy this, he casts Steal Skill on the first bazaar merchant he passes, taking his Merchant skill. The merchant has IQ 10, Business Acumen 2, and Merchant-15, having spent 12 points on Merchant. Severin gains Merchant as if he had spent 12 points on the skill – with Severin’s IQ of 14, his Merchant skill is now 17. He does not gain the benefit of the merchant’s Business Acumen Talent.

"Duration: 24 hours.
"Cost: 1 per character point stolen (minimum cost of 10).
"Time to cast: 1 minute.
"Prerequisites: Magery 3, Borrow Skill, and Daze."

[Curmudgeon]

Daze is a prerequisite for Steal Skill. Looking at Daze, I would suggest that it provides the explanation you seek.

While effectively a house rule, a reasonable interpretation would be that Daze is a prerequisite for Steal Skill because the Steal Skill spell incorporates a Daze effect within it. Neither character can do anything because the caster is touching and holding onto the subject while the subject is oblivious to the caster and the fact that the caster is touching and holding on to him. Thus there is no need to grapple the subject, or otherwise draw attention to the pair.

Since the effect is essentially that the subject is dazed, it isn't particularly powerful. After all, you could get the same effect by casting a Daze spell.

While it is in house rule territory, I would assume that injury would snap the subject out of the Steal Skill spell just as it would for the Daze spell. Successful resistance would do the same, but is effectively a non-starter since the resistance roll (Will roll) isn't made until the casting is completed.

The minimum cost is 10, whether the subject has 1 point in the skill or 10 points, the casting cost only increases beyond the minimum if you attempt to steal more than 10 points worth of skill. Minimum costs that are more expensive than the benefit received for small values of the benefit are nothing new to either GURPS in general, or GURPS Magic in particular.

While something of a house rule, there are two implications in the casting cost. The first is that the amount of skill stolen is somewhat under the control of the caster, i.e. you can't steal more points in a skill than the subject has, but you don't have to steal all of his skill. In the example, Severin, could probably have stolen less than the full twelve points, gaining for example only 10 points in Merchant for a casting cost of 10 rather than the 12 he used. The second is that since the minimum casting cost of 10 is paid even if the spell is aborted, which would gain you 0 points in the subject's skill, it would seem to follow that you would pay the minimum cost of 10 even if the subject has 0 points in the skill you seek to steal, so you had better make sure that the subject really does know the skill before you attempt to steal it from him.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Daze is a prerequisite for Steal Skill. Looking at Daze, I would suggest that it provides the explanation you seek.

While effectively a house rule, a reasonable interpretation would be that Daze is a prerequisite for Steal Skill because the Steal Skill spell incorporates a Daze effect within it. Neither character can do anything because the caster is touching and holding onto the subject while the subject is oblivious to the caster and the fact that the caster is touching and holding on to him. Thus there is no need to grapple the subject, or otherwise draw attention to the pair.

Since the effect is essentially that the subject is dazed, it isn't particularly powerful. After all, you could get the same effect by casting a Daze spell.

While it is in house rule territory, I would assume that injury would snap the subject out of the Steal Skill spell just as it would for the Daze spell. Successful resistance would do the same, but is effectively a non-starter since the resistance roll (Will roll) isn't made until the casting is completed.

All of this makes sense to me, but .... if i know Steal Skill I can completely incapacitate a dragon for an entire minute just by touching him and having 10 FP to spend? And he doesn't get to resist until the end of the one-minute casting time?

[coronatiger]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

All of this makes sense to me, but .... if i know Steal Skill I can completely incapacitate a dragon for an entire minute just by touching him and having 10 FP to spend? And he doesn't get to resist until the end of the one-minute casting time?

I would never allow such a thing. My understanding of the spell is that it requires the victim to be helpless or ignorant during the casting. You either have to subdue the victim somehow, or trick them to allow one minute of touching while you speak incomprehensible words and make funny gestures.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

All of this makes sense to me, but .... if i know Steal Skill I can completely incapacitate a dragon for an entire minute just by touching him and having 10 FP to spend? And he doesn't get to resist until the end of the one-minute casting time?

The Daze component is not descriptively built into the effect of Steal Skill, although it looks like a playable ruling. At any rate, the caster is just as helpless as the target while casting the spell, the only difference being that the caster has paid the FP cost and can break off before the spell is cast by aborting. That should also give the target freedom to act. Also note that SS is a Regular spell, so the cost will be increased for targets with a positive SM.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by coronatiger

I would never allow such a thing. My understanding of the spell is that it requires the victim to be helpless or ignorant during the casting. You either have to subdue the victim somehow, or trick them to allow one minute of touching while you speak incomprehensible words and make funny gestures.

No kidding. But none of that stuff is in the spell description. So how does it work? I'm mainly asking if anyone has a fix for this spell, because as written, it's got a lot of holes and doesn't make much sense.

Compared to Borrow Skill (also a prerequisite) - where both caster and subject must be willing - you'd expect Steal Skill to work somehow with an unwilling subject. So must the subject be incapacitated? And if so, how is that an improvement from only working on a willing subject? If anything, it makes Steal Skill much less valuable, as you're forced to subdue your subject first.

How does Severin perform this spell on a merchant in a bazaar on the way to somewhere else?

[Curmudgeon]

Yes and no. As I said, your "incapacitation" seems to be based on the Daze spell, so you really need to look up that spell description to get a better idea of what's going on.

Yes, if you have 10 FP to spare (meaning you're either HT 10, fresh as a daisy, and prepared to exhaust yourself almost to unconsciousness, or your HT is greater than 10 and you don't mind spending FP) [edit: The FP cost does need to account for the SM.], and cast Steal Skill spell, you can incapacitate a dragon, if you decided to cast Steal Spell on it, and it wouldn't get to resolve its resistance to the spell until the casting was completed a minute later. However, this doesn't mean that the dragon (or any other subject, for that matter) isn't resisting right along for the entire duration of the spell, only that resistance isn't resolved one way or the other until the casting is completed, or aborted.

The text description doesn't say anything about whether the subject continues to be "incapacitated" if you abort the spell, but it is reasonable to assume that if you abort the spell, and hence never complete the casting, that the subject automatically succeeds in his resistance, rather than continuing to be "incapacitated" forever, since the casting is never completed which wouldn't allow the resistance roll to occur at the "completion of the casting."

There are a couple of points against the idea that you can "incapacitate a dragon" by casting the Steal Skill spell.

First, the "incapacitation" doesn't start until the casting starts, so to incapacitate your dragon, you first have to walk, or run, up to it and touch it. The dragon may be fussy about who gets to be that intimate with it and register a forceful objection before you get that far.

Second, looking at Daze, and assuming that the Steal Spell effect is derived from it, the "neither character may do anything for that duration," is not equivalent to both characters effectively may Do Nothing for the duration of the casting. (The caster, obviously, may continue the casting, but may otherwise Do Nothing.) Rather, like Daze, the subject continues to "look and act normal." If he's the merchant from the example, and was talking to a customer when Severin started to cast the spell, he doesn't suddenly stop and stand there with his mouth gaping open in mid-word until the casting is complete. He continues to speak to the customer and doesn't lose his train of thought in the conversation (unless he's the kind of person who does lose his train of thought) but he doesn't take a blind bit of notice that Severin is there holding onto him (which may be as simple as holding the merchant's hand, or pressing his open hand up against the merchant's back).

The most that can be said for the incapacitation is that, based on Daze, the merchant shouldn't remember that Severin, or even a nebulous someone, was there when his skill was stolen or really when his skill was stolen, unless he was using it/made use of it immediately afterward.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Yes and no. As I said, your "incapacitation" seems to be based on the Daze spell, so you really need to look up that spell description to get a better idea of what's going on.

Yes, if you have 10 FP to spare (meaning you're either HT 10, fresh as a daisy, and prepared to exhaust yourself almost to unconsciousness, or your HT is greater than 10 and you don't mind spending FP), and cast Steal Skill spell, you can incapacitate a dragon, if you decided to cast Steal Spell on it, and it wouldn't get to resolve its resistance to the spell until the casting was completed a minute later. However, this doesn't mean that the dragon (or any other subject, for that matter) isn't resisting right along for the entire duration of the spell, only that resistance isn't resolved one way or the other until the casting is completed, or aborted.

The text description doesn't say anything about whether the subject continues to be "incapacitated" if you abort the spell, but it is reasonable to assume that if you abort the spell, and hence never complete the casting, that the subject automatically succeeds in his resistance, rather than continuing to be "incapacitated" forever, since the casting is never completed which wouldn't allow the resistance roll to occur at the "completion of the casting."

There are a couple of points against the idea that you can "incapacitate a dragon" by casting the Steal Skill spell.

First, the "incapacitation" doesn't start until the casting starts, so to incapacitate your dragon, you first have to walk, or run, up to it and touch it. The dragon may be fussy about who gets to be that intimate with it and register a forceful objection before you get that far.

Second, looking at Daze, and assuming that the Steal Spell effect is derived from it, the "neither character may do anything for that duration," is not equivalent to both characters effectively may Do Nothing for the duration of the casting. (The caster, obviously, may continue the casting, but may otherwise Do Nothing.) Rather, like Daze, the subject continues to "look and act normal." If he's the merchant from the example, and was talking to a customer when Severin started to cast the spell, he doesn't suddenly stop and stand there with his mouth gaping open in mid-word until the casting is complete. He continues to speak to the customer and doesn't lose his train of thought in the conversation (unless he's the kind of person who does lose his train of thought) but he doesn't take a blind bit of notice that Severin is there holding onto him (which may be as simple as holding the merchant's hand, or pressing his open hand up against the merchant's back).

The most that can be said for the incapacitation is that, based on Daze, the merchant shouldn't remember that Severin, or at least a nebulous someone, was there when his skill was stolen or really when his skill was stolen, unless he was using it/made use of it immediately afterward.

I have read the three sentence description of Daze, and it sounds to me like you're doing a lot of work to make Steal Skill work. I have also read the description for Borrow Skill, which is also a prerequisite for Steal Skill. What you say might make sense, except that in the description to Steal Skill it says "neither character can do anything for that duration."

A mage with a a power item, who knows Invisibility and Silence, can walk up to a dragon and put him on hold for one minute - with no resistance - while his pals set up a huge ambush? Or are you saying the dragon keeps fighting as he was doing before? That's not "doing nothing for the duration."

In any case, I'm not worried about the dragon.

Is there any way for a mage to steal a skill from somebody that makes sense? Is there a spell that allows a mage who gets in a sword fight with a swashbuckler to steal the swashbuckler's Broadsword skill and duel him? That spell ought to exist.

The power exists in Psionic Powers ("Borrow Skill" on page 57). I guess I could look into turning it into a spell somehow. Surely someone has worked on a "From Advantages to Skills" mechanic....

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

I have read the three sentence description of Daze, and it sounds to me like you're doing a lot of work to make Steal Skill work. I have also read the description for Borrow Skill, which is also a prerequisite for Steal Skill. What you say might make sense, except that in the description to Steal Skill it says "neither character can do anything for that duration."

A mage with a a power item, who knows Invisibility and Silence, can walk up to a dragon and put him on hold for one minute - with no resistance - while his pals set up a huge ambush? Or are you saying the dragon keeps fighting as he was doing before? That's not "doing nothing for the duration."

In any case, I'm not worried about the dragon.

Is there any way for a mage to steal a skill from somebody that makes sense? Is there a spell that allows a mage who gets in a sword fight with a swashbuckler to steal the swashbuckler's Broadsword skill and duel him? That spell ought to exist.

The power exists in Psionic Powers ("Borrow Skill" on page 57). I guess I could look into turning it into a spell somehow. Surely someone has worked on a "From Advantages to Skills" mechanic....

And it sounds to me like you you're trying to make the Steal Skill spell more difficult/useless than it is. In what way does the Steal Skill spell not make sense for a mage, as I've described it?

I'm less sanguinary about the existence of a spell that would allow a mage who gets into a sword fight with a swashbuckler to steal the swashbuckler's Broadsword skill and duel him. It strikes me that it's still going to be a one-sided fight, just that it's now one-sided on the mage's part since he now has the swashbuckler's Broadsword skill and.
, for the duration of the spell, the swashbuckler is running off his default Broadsword skill.

Now, a spell that allowed the mage to Mimic Skill, giving the mage skill equal to that of the swashbuckler (possibly, as in Steal Skill, the same number of character points but using the caster's attribute as a base), from an unwilling subject, while not removing the skill or points from the subject, would possibly be a spell that you would want, but I'm not aware of a spell that does that.

You could create such a spell, either as a secret spell or as a known spell, for your game.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

You could create such a spell, either as a secret spell or as a known spell, for your game.

And here it is. I was calling this "Telepathic Learning," but then I saw this post and decided your name for it was better.

Mimic Skill (Spell, IQ/VH): Information; Resisted by Will.

This spell adapts an advantage to a skill in a manner similar to Kromm’s “From Skills to Advantages” from Pyramid 3/44. “You can reach out and tap into the knowledge of the people around you, temporarily gaining a skill, [spell,] or language. Roll against your … skill to find the range of this ability. If successful, consult the Long-Distance Modifiers chart (B241), reading your margin of success (as a negative number) on the Penalty column. If anyone within range has this skill (GM’s call), you gain it temporarily ….” This takes 2 seconds for each point gained, up to 4 points. “If you are in direct mental contact with a person … range as negligible. The ‘donor’ does not lose the skill. [H]e may choose to resist” this spell (Psionic Powers 57).

Duration: The spell lasts indefinitely, or until the donor is out of range; counts as a spell on until ended. See Psionic Powers 57-58 for further details.

Cost: 5.

Time to cast: 2 seconds for each point of skill or ability gained, up to 4 points total.

Prerequisites: Magery, Secret Spell: Mimic Skill.

Statistics: Telepathic Learning 4 (Psionic Powers 16), Costs 5 FP -25%, Requires IQ Roll, Resistible -20%, Takes Extra Time -10%, Magic -10%, Feature: long-distance modifiers instead of fixed range, 8 points. This ability is comparable to a Very Hard skill at Attribute level; the Very Hard spell replaces the ability and otherwise functions exactly as a spell, with cost and time-to-cast reductions for high skill, etc.