Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-24-2020, 02:37 PM   #1
Overheat
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Default Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

Back when I first got into GURPS, I bought Magic 3E and Grimoire at a bookstore since I had heard it had much the same material as 4E GURPS Magic. I did later eventually get a softcover copy of 4E, but I occasionally would wonder what changed between the two editions.

The last week or so I went through my each spell in GURPS Magic 3E and Grimoire and compared the text to what was in 4E, and logged the meaningful differences that I spotted on a spreadsheet. There are quite a bit more than I expected.

I tried to only list the changes with game mechanical effects. Often there was clarifying language added, I only listed it if I felt it were important to the understanding on how the spell worked. Some spells had many more differences than could be covered in one cell. I usually noted them as large/various differences. They are usually the type of spells that need heavy GM oversight anyway.

I figured I would post the link here in case anyone in the future was interested or would find it useful.

EDIT: I added a new tab that lists the differences between 4E and the DFRPG spells.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...7GPsa1r-Q2PQsM

Interesting differences in 3E-

Steal Attribute, Steal Skill, and Steal Beauty could be made permanent.
The cumulative penalty for Relieve Addiction was only -1 per day.
There was no cumulative penalty for Vigil.
Essential Food is VH. I think this is the only spell that changed difficulty. (This was fixed via errata. Fixed on the sheet.)
Terror is 4 times as cheap and penalizes the Fright Check more.
Create Food couldn't create food ex nihilo.

Last edited by Overheat; 10-05-2021 at 08:57 PM.
Overheat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2020, 03:48 PM   #2
Otaku
 
Otaku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: South Dakota, USA
Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

I haven't had a chance to look through this yet, but thanks!
__________________
My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :)
Otaku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2020, 05:55 PM   #3
edk926
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

I think the Magic 4e errata lists Essential Food as VH.
edk926 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2020, 08:29 PM   #4
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

Interesting. Thanks for the spreadsheet.

You should consider doing the Enchantment college spells, since there were some substantial changes. In particular, any enchantments dealing with PD (e.g., Deflect) went away.

As another project, consider comparing GURPS 4E spells to GURPS Dungeon Fantasy and DFRPG spells.

IMO, Magic 4E was a rush job which ignored 10+ years of fan feedback regarding which spells were broken and how they should be fixed (GURPS Magic 1E was for GURPS 2E and came out in the late 1980s - 1987 or 1988, IRC). Many of the recommended fixes only happened when GURPS Magic was ported over to Dungeon Fantasy and then DFRPG.

If you want to fix problems with GURPS 3E magic, you will need to dig way into the weeds try to find the GURPS-L Listserv and rec.game.rpg.gurps Usenet archives, which still preserve some of the commonly recommended changes at the time. A really careful crawl through the GURPS forum will also catch a number of complaints and recommended fixes, especially ca. 2003-2005.

Some of the older surviving fan-based material on the web also proposes fixes for stock Magic 3E spells. One of the larger attempts is here:

http://patyrsun.tripod.com/magic.htm

This is, essentially, a really ancient version of my Codex Arcanum, minus Mind Control spells (which never made it on to the quaint little pre-21st century World Wide Web) and with the serial numbers filed off. It incorporates all the more intelligent suggestions for fixing problematic spells made prior to about 1999.
Pursuivant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2020, 09:10 PM   #5
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
I
In particular, any enchantments dealing with PD (e.g., Deflect) went away.
I don't think so. I think Magic is one of the few places where PD just morphed into DB. Even the Shield rules reduced PD by 1 before turning it into DB but in Magic you can still put DB not only on Armor and Shields but Weapons too.

Penetrating Blade underwent big changes. It's so good now that we probably need a Hardened Defense spell.

In 3e you used to be able to make a Sword of Everbleeding Wounds but the Enchantment version of that went away in 4e. A very nice Enchantment version of Stop Bleeding showed up instead so I guess 4e is just sort of anti-bleeding.
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 06:37 AM   #6
Stormcrow
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

I found the biggest change to be not the details of the spells but the specific lists available in the Basic Set. The fourth edition took away the Animal and Making and Breaking colleges, and added Body Control, Gate, Meta, Movement, Necromantic, and Protection and Warning colleges. In itself this isn't a problem, but there are issues when trying to use third-edition source books that tell you that the spell list of the Basic Set is an appropriate base for a particular type of spellcaster. Unless you write a new spell list based on the third-edition Basic Set, you're getting the wrong list.
Stormcrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 08:34 AM   #7
kmunoz
 
kmunoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Seattle, Washington
Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Interesting. Thanks for the spreadsheet.
IMO, Magic 4E was a rush job which ignored 10+ years of fan feedback regarding which spells were broken and how they should be fixed (GURPS Magic 1E was for GURPS 2E and came out in the late 1980s - 1987 or 1988, IRC). Many of the recommended fixes only happened when GURPS Magic was ported over to Dungeon Fantasy and then DFRPG.
I remember reading but can no longer find a post where it was mentioned that the compiler(s) of Magic 4E had a truly updated and corrected version of the text ready to go but SJG ended up printing the not-completely updated version instead.
__________________
Natural Encyclopedia: 660 GURPS bestiary entries
It Came from the Forums: A Community Bestiary with 160 entries
(last updated 2009...someday I will revisit.)
kmunoz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 09:39 AM   #8
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmunoz View Post

I remember reading but can no longer find a post where it was mentioned that the compiler(s) of Magic 4E had a truly updated and corrected version of the text ready to go but SJG ended up printing the not-completely updated version instead.
That was not the case. Version-control issues have hit us a few times over the years, but not here – at least not in the sense you mean.

The issue was that GURPS Magic was in in revision and editing while I was still 100% occupied with the Basic Set, Fourth Edition. Immediately after that, I was set to organizing all the hardbacks we had promised. I never got a chance to review Magic. As a result, it didn't get a review from one of exactly two people in the world – David Pulver and myself – who were fully aware of all the edition changes at the time. The compiler had to muddle through with an almost two-year-old first draft of the Basic Set, which changed considerably during a long and rigorous review process.

Thus, there was in a sense a "version-control issue" that affected the compiler, but that was with the Basic Set, not Magic. If the compiler or someone else said that they worked up a revised draft that was more in tune with the Basic Set as finally released, they might well have been telling the truth. However, that would have been well after both the Basic Set and Magic were released!
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News]
Kromm is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 01:34 PM   #9
smurf
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bristol
Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

I think the shift from PD to DB was great. Is there or will there be a sort of rule of thumb for conversion to DB, this may help converting vehicles too?
smurf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 01:36 PM   #10
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

One major change between systems is probably that you can't do half-point skills anymore. Some semblance of that was introduced in Magical Styles with "Wizardly Dabbler" but that only works on no-prereqs starter spells.

Of course, if you're also using that perk which lets spells default to each other at -4 (plus prereqs) then you could use standard Dabbler mechanics to buy off those penalties, but the outcome is not particularly impressive compared to just sinking a point in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overheat View Post
Steal Attribute, Steal Skill, and Steal Beauty could be made permanent.
I imagine they moved away from built-in permanence in 4E so that people would use M60's Ensorcel for that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overheat View Post
Terror is 4 times as cheap and penalizes the Fright Check more.
1/4 (one quarter or one fourth) or 25% the cost, that is?

Another basis for comparison would be the functionality of rituals in 3e's zombies/spirits compared to 4e's thaumatology. I know Spirit Slave got a slight tweak in terms of what traits are applied.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
magic

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.