10-11-2012, 07:49 PM | #31 |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage
Improvising something to protect his forearms, because his suit only covers the body and head, to protect from firearms? One was bought at the beginning of a career, based on the theory that heavy armour for vitals was most important, the other is field-expedient gear meant for melee once he had been in a few. I added the bracer as an afterthought, as a cheap, non-restrictive piece of gear that would protect the arm on a 1-3 on a 1d and was thus likely to have proved its value in combat.
Why are US Marines and other troops armouring their vehicles with field-expedient such as welded scrap metal? Or before the issue of the DAP, wrapping vests around their arms while manning machine guns? In any case, are you arguing that the existence of suits of armour that did not cover the whole body is a myth? That warriors never left their arms or legs mostly uncovered? Going by extant late suits, at the height of gunpowder weapons but before abandoning armour entirely, that's simply not true. In fact, most such examples have no arm protection at all, other than the shoulders. Would that have been better? If it helps, imagine a large set of bracelets.
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Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! Last edited by Icelander; 10-11-2012 at 07:52 PM. |
10-11-2012, 08:33 PM | #32 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: [LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage
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I said that the combination of shoulder and forearm protection, but not hand, elbow, or upper arm is very unlikely historically. The only example I know of in three thousand years is the Dendra Panoply. This suggests that it wasn't a good idea in most historical contexts. In my games, non-player characters act as if they are living in the world that the rules imperfectly reflect, not the world that the rules precisely describe. But even in a game, a character in full armour with no protection against Arm Locks may regret it soon.
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10-11-2012, 08:38 PM | #33 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage
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A bracer that extends over the outer elbow is providing only partial protection. How much is fairly complex to determine. In any case, it is clearly not the equivalent of full protection for the hit location, because that's what is represented by a couter, with vambrace partially extending over it and maybe a rondel too.
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10-12-2012, 09:20 AM | #34 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: [LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage
Quote:
I would represent a bazuband as a Plate Elbow/Forearm which gives +2 to attack Chinks or Gaps (see: Sliding Rivets) and which doesn't protect against joint locks. An articulated harness for the whole arm would have neither vulnerability. Note that these were normally worn with a short-sleeved armour protecting the rest of the arm, but its possible that they were sometimes worn without other arm protection. You set a great store on realism and technical accuracy. Are you serious about that, or do you just want some buzzwords and details to impress people who know nothing? The later works well for writers, especially those of techno-thrillers, but its not to my taste.
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10-12-2012, 02:08 PM | #35 | ||||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage
Quote:
The Knee comes out even better, with 5% for its 4 on the 1d against 13.33% per one on a 1d for the shins and 22.5% for the thighs. Under GURPS rules, there is no penalty or extra craftsmanship cost for including perfect knee or elbow protection along with a bracer or either greaves or tassets, beyond the +20% to bracer cost and weight and ca +10% to leg armour. The articulation costs nothing extra. It also gives no penalty to athletics and acrobatic feats to have inflexible armour over your joints. Given these benefits, I'm inclined to regard this as an unwarranted quirk of the armour design system and cast a gimlet eye at attempts to leverage it. Quote:
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Hitting the Upper Arm is -5, so taking advantage of a gap there would require fairly precise timing and great accuracy. So it's not as if the arm is unprotected. Realistically, articulated gauntlets and joints will always cost more than the equivalent amount of material somewhere less complex. And no amount of craftsmanship can make them as comfortable and free as wearing nothing at all over those areas. Even when they don't impose a penalty for common battlefield tasks, they do for certain athletic feats. No one runs the 100 m as fast while wearing sollerets, plate greaves, poleyns and tassets as he does while wearing shorts and sneakers, even if the weight is well below his BL. Quote:
If gaming the armour design system, almost every character will have elbow and knee protection. I don't think that this describes almost every combatant at all periods in history. A bracer made to protect the sword hand and to parry with an unarmed skill is effective, under the game rules*, and it seems to better suit the aesthetics of Greco-Roman-esque warriors, for example. Not to mention some gladiators. I realise that the subject of bracers (bronze or leather) for Greek warriors is controversial, but from the limited pictorial evidence, I'd support wrist support going a short distance up along the arm, stopping short of the elbow, before I'd support bazuband-like ones. *If not as effective as one that also protects the elbow.
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10-12-2012, 02:53 PM | #36 |
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Re: [LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage
Its just el cheapo Ebay Special LARP armor, but at least for LARP purposes the shortsleeve upper arm armor combined with the forearm and elbow and lower upper arm armor combined did an admirable job of preventing shots in that area
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...amtgardpic.jpg |
10-12-2012, 05:13 PM | #37 |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Thazari Cataphracht
Let's try a suit of armour actually in use in my campaign:
These are Thayan koursores, light cataphracts who carry bows, lances and swords. They are meant to function as heavy cavalry, but their swift horses, relatively light armour and superior training also makes them able to match skirmish cavalry at scouting and screening duties when necessary. Skullcap: Light plate++ khud (covers Skull, x0.20; +8 lbs., +$500, +2 DR; + Cloth Padding, +1.2 lbs., +$10, +1 DR). Weight 4.4 lbs.; Cost $410; DR 5. Aventail: Light mail (covers Face(R) and Neck, x0.075). Weight 0.9 lbs.; Cost $37.5; DR 3/1. Face-mask: Light plate mask (covers F(F), x0.025). Weight 0.2 lbs.; Cost $25; DR 3. Spaulders: Medium segmented plate* (covers Shoulders(F), x0.05). Weight 0.9 lbs.; Cost $45; DR 4. Cuirass: Mail and plates (covers Chest(F), x0.375; Hardened Steel +1 DR). Weight 7.5 lbs.; Cost $2,625; DR 6/5. Shield: Metal Small Shield, Light** (hanging off the shoulder, covers Upper Arm, left, uses Shield (Guige); +1 lbs.; +$10). Weight 3.25 lbs.; Cost: $130; Cover DR 7. Haubergeon: Light mail (covers Abdomen, Chest(R) and Shoulders, x0.635). Weight 7.62 lbs.; Cost $317.5; DR 3/1. Fauld: Light segmented plate (covers Abdomen(F), except Groin). Weight 1.2 lbs.; Cost $60; DR 3. Tassets: Light segmented plate (covers Thighs(F) and Knees(F), x0.25). Weight 3 lbs.; Cost $150; DR 3. Bazubands: Light segmented plate (covers Forearms and Elbows***, x0.275). Weight 3.6 lbs.; Cost $180; DR 3. Boots: Riding Boots, medium leather (covers Feet and Shins on 1 on 1d) Weight 3 lbs.; Cost $80; DR 2/1*. Total Weight: 34.97 lbs.; Total Cost: $4,050. Edit: I've changed to helmet to plate, according to a suggestion by Lancewholelot, and added a shield mounted to the shoulder/upper arm, which I initially forgot to include. Re-edit: Changed the cuirass to mail-and-plate, in light of Dan's comments. *I use Dan's modified weight for segmented plate and scale and his modified cost for mail and plates. Without these, the Armour Table doesn't make much sense and segmented plate goes from being an intergral part of TL4 suits to being poor TL2 armour that inexplicably continued in use. **I add +2 DR to metal shields, in addition to reducing weight by -25%. *** Partial coverage, 1-3 on an 1d.
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Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! Last edited by Icelander; 10-14-2012 at 06:19 PM. |
10-14-2012, 02:03 AM | #38 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: USA, Planet Earth, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Re: Thazari Cataphracht
Was segmented plate used for cost reasons? I would think that a plate skull cap would be the standard assumption at TL3 and beyond. Not for GURPS LT optimization reasons mind you, but from a historical perspective, it would be much better at keeping one's skull convex rather than concave. Protective plates mounted to a supportive framework would be Low Tech's Spangenhelms by default.
Last edited by Lancewholelot; 10-14-2012 at 02:36 AM. Reason: typo |
10-14-2012, 02:10 AM | #39 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: USA, Planet Earth, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Re: [LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage
And I agree that visors, as well as other helmet additions, should have a more basic standard, rather than be based on a percentage of the helmet they are added to.
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10-14-2012, 02:28 AM | #40 |
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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Re: Thazari Cataphracht
There is no such thing as TL3 lamellar. Historically, lamellar gets superseded by mail-and-plates.
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