Why is Flight so cheap?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

I agree low / no signature doesn't really work (it's also pretty explicitly tied to innate attacks).

This is not true: Powers explicitly generalized it.

However, Powers did not make flight noisy by default.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

There is a well-established method for dealing with loud flight propulsion: Temporary Disadvantage (Noisy).

Good point!

either way you tailor the use of that to the specific method of flight. Either way there's now evidence to assume that flight defaults to having a set level of that. Which also supports your refutation of the argument that flight needs to have low/no signature in order not to be noisy.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

This is not true: Powers explicitly generalized it.

Ah OK cheers. I was going by the gun symbol in it's listing in characters, but as you intimate it being broadened out doesn't mean all advantages are noisy unless it's taken

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

However, Powers did not make flight noisy by default.

Quite

[oneofmanynameless]

So flight is not noisy by default, but includes a level of enhanced move and more free vertical movement then any other advantage short of Warp... If the only reason for it to cost less is because it's more common in fiction, how much would you charge to make it balanced against other movement abilities?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

So flight is not noisy by default, but includes a level of enhanced move and more free vertical movement then any other advantage short of Warp... If the only reason for it to cost less is because it's more common in fiction, how much would you charge to make it balanced against other movement abilities?

Absent the increased Move, Flight is arguably bit better than Walk On Air [20], so somewhere between [20] and [30] for that part. Enhanced Move 1 (Air; Second Nature +150%) [50] would be added on top of that, so you're looking at between [70] and [80].

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Absent the increased Move, Flight is arguably bit better than Walk On Air [20], so somewhere between [20] and [30] for that part. Enhanced Move 1 (Air; Second Nature +150%) [50] would be added on top of that, so you're looking at between [70] and [80].

I think you're overestimating the cost of the increased Air Move. For Starters, Air Move is only 2 points per +1 Air Move (p. B18). That's only 10 points for +5 move; even if you increase that to 5 points per +1 Air Move[1], that's only 25 points worth of Move. Enhanced Move is overkill, let alone Enhance Move w/Second Nature, until you want to hit really high movement rates.

[1]which you probably should, considering that there's really no justification to make Air Move cheaper than Ground Move/Basic Move.

My suggestion for fixing Flight: Leave cost at 40 points, but take away the move bonus. Increase the cost of Air Move to 5 points.
Super Jump should be 5/level, and I'm tempted to go with some sort of exponential jumping distance to make it really worth while, but I'm not sure what would be fair off the top of my head. Clearly, being able to "Leap tall buildings with a single bound" shouldn't be far more expensive than actual Flight, and should probably be worth considerably less.

[Leynok]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Absent the increased Move, Flight is arguably bit better than Walk On Air [20], so somewhere between [20] and [30] for that part. Enhanced Move 1 (Air; Second Nature +150%) [50] would be added on top of that, so you're looking at between [70] and [80].

I would instead work on making the other movement based Advantages cheaper. Tell a player that Advantage is X more expensive and they'll be put off it, no one likes hearing that they'll be able to make a less competent character than they thought. Tell a player that these other Advantages are Y cheaper, and they'll either not worry about it, or be thrilled that they can make a Character Concept for cheaper than they thought.

[T.K.]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Well, the best I can say, about Flight (which IIRC is 40 points) vs Enhanced Move and Clinging (which I'm pretty sure is a lot more than 40 for twenty levels of each) is that Flight is inherently noisy whereas Clinging is silent.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?!

This doesn't even make sense...no idea where such idea would come from. Powers describe effects as having clear visual effects, not hearing ones.

That means when flying users will display: wings flapping, comisc waves emanating from them, their body flowing along, etc, etc, etc, etc...

Doesn't mean the wings flapping will actually make any meaningful audible sound UNLESS they also take Nuisance Effect.

If there was even the slightest intention for the sound produced to be a hindrance at least a fluffy description about it would be in place.

[munin]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

… there's really no justification to make Air Move cheaper than Ground Move/Basic Move. …

I think the justification is that it effectively is an alternative ability to ground move … but that isn't backed up by the cost of water move.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

I think you're overestimating the cost of the increased Air Move.

Almost certainly, but Enhanced Move is the only reliable way to increase a Move score by a multiplier without having to adjust price depending on the rest of a character's abilities. I think Air Move's reduced price is due to it being calculated based on 2xSpeed rather than just Speed (so they cut the price in half, but then decided to round down for one reason or another), so without that caveat it should indeed be [5]/level, meaning Flight is worth between [45] and [55] for a Speed 5 character, but there's a +[5] to cost per +1 to Speed.

Originally Posted by Leynok

I would instead work on making the other movement based Advantages cheaper.

I agree, actually, I was just answering the question as it was asked.

As for making the others cheaper, one could easily argue for Enhanced Move being worth [10]/level (such that doubling your Move for an average - that is, Move 5 - character costs the same regardless of if you buy up Basic Move or grab Enhanced Move with Second Nature). Applying that to Flight means the base Flight ability is worth around [15], so Walk On Air should be somewhere around that - might as well just stick with [15] (Flight is a bit more useful, but Walk On Air lets you use the same skills and Advantages for both ground-based and air-based travel). Clinging with Attraction (+25%) is fairly comparable to Walk On Air, but with the necessity of staying adjacent to an object, which is probably worth -20% or so. That puts Clinging as being worth around [10]. Super Jump is a Perk (probably) to not have to prepare before the jump, then Enhanced Move (Second Nature) that only applies to jumps. [5]/level is probably about the right price there. I've previously worked out a "Flash Step" type ability, where your movement is completely unaffected by anything between point A and B (you warp Move yards as a Move Manuever, Move/5 as a Step, etc), as costing around [40]. Permeation and Tunneling are arguably comparable - you have to actually move through the intervening space but can opt to stop in the middle - but I'd have to review the mechanics of those to see what price would be appropriate. Brachiator might be alright at [5], although turning it into a Perk wouldn't be too much of a stretch. With Walk on Air dropped to [15], I'd probably drop Walk on Liquid to [10] - you could rewrite Walk on Air as Walk on Fluid, and "Liquids Only" would be a -35% or so Limitation, which doesn't seem too out there (as it stands, Liquids Only would be -25%, but I'd be tempted to round [11.25] down to [10] to maintain pentaphilia). Am I missing any?
EDIT: Here's the suggested list in a more readable format:
Brachiator [1]
Clinging [10]
Enhanced Move [10]/level
Flash Step [40]
Flight [40]
Super Jump [5]
Walk on Air [15]
Walk on Liquids [10]