Flight does not improve Dodge? Seems weird.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by LemmingLord

I do dodge and drop all the time using flight. I assume that I'm immune to the prone penalties sing I can fly straight up.

Actually, you use the 'Flying and Swimming' paragraph on B377 (end of Dodge and Drop), which specifies that you don't wind up prone, but also doesn't let you use the maneuver at all most of the time.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by trooper6

Remember, you could be able to fly...but be awkward and slow.
You could be fast...but not maneuverable.
Now...if you can fly...you can stay out of melee range and then not have to dodge at all.

If your player is making an flying orb...small size will make it harder to hit, and enhanced dodge will help with the dodging...as will aerobatics for aerobatic dodges.

Yeah, being a small flying ball is more than just flight. a small glowing ball that can dart all over the place has the same flight enhancements as a whale that can fly 'cause magic'. The differences are elsewhere.

But it is a GREAT bit of fluff for buying basic speed way up.

[weevis]

Originally Posted by trooper6

Remember, you could be able to fly...but be awkward and slow. You could be fast...but not maneuverable.

Thanks but maybe I didn't explain the confusion. You spend 40 points, the rules say you move twice as fast, including twice the top speed and twice the acceleration. They also imply you can easily move in three dimensions now. Seems like this would affect dodge. But it doesn't.

In my scenario, you're not awkward and slow. You're twice as fast. It seems you are a lot more maneuverable, as you have twice the acceleration. That's my point.

[weevis]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

High speed movement does not necessarily correlate to higher reaction times. Dodge is based off reaction time.

This is helpful and I understand if it has to be that way for game balance reasons.

Leaving flying aside, when I dodge a ranged weapon attack I can't "react" to a bullet and dodge around it. So what I'm doing is reacting to someone raising a gun at me, right? When I see them raise the gun I move suddenly (e.g., dodge and drop) so that were they were aiming is not where I am any longer. This makes sense and I see why it would be a different process from my size or my current speed (which makes it harder for them to aim at me in the first place).

But even if dodge is a defense based on my reaction time, it does seem like being able to fly, move twice as fast, and accelerate twice as fast -- not to mention being able to dodge in an unexpected direction (e.g., up) would be helpful. OK dodge is a reaction, but after I react, I react by doing something. I can now do those things twice as fast! That's all I was saying.

Now that I see the p. B377 rule that says fliers can't really use dodge and drop, the situation seems even weirder. First of all, that rule seems to mix up dropping to the ground and cover, which I thought were two different things. Second, it seems to take away a useful part of Dodge if you buy Flight. So effectively if you buy flight your defense is a little worse. Seems backwards.

But if it has to be this way for game balance, that's fine. I just thought I was misunderstanding the rules and wanted to check.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by weevis

Thanks but maybe I didn't explain the confusion. You spend 40 points, the rules say you move twice as fast, including twice the top speed and twice the acceleration. They also imply you can easily move in three dimensions now. Seems like this would affect dodge. But it doesn't.

In my scenario, you're not awkward and slow. You're twice as fast. It seems you are a lot more maneuverable, as you have twice the acceleration. That's my point.

Your reaction speed is not increased. I can move at over 100mph in a car, and accelerate faster than I can run, but that doesn't increase my reaction speed.

[Edges]

In GURPS, you get what you pay for. Justify it as you will.

As I understand it, it costs 40 points to fly without any improvement of dodge. If you are the GM and you feel that isn't realistic, say that flight costs 55 points and includes a +1 to dodge.

[Curmudgeon]

More or less, the bottom line is: the fact that you move twice as fast is taken into account with the speed/range chart. It may make a big difference, a little difference or no difference (if you're just moving straight towards me without dodging) depending on other circumstances.

Unless Flight gives you something like increased DX or Combat Reflexes in addition to the increased movement any attempt to have Flight affect Dodge beyond the effect generated on the speed/range table amounts to double dipping, i.e., trying to count the bonus twice. That's the essence of why Flight doesn't affect Dodge. Doesn't seem the least bit weird to me.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Your reaction speed is not increased. I can move at over 100mph in a car, and accelerate faster than I can run, but that doesn't increase my reaction speed.

Exactly. Reaction "speed" does not refer to linear distance over time (feet per second, miles per hour). Reaction "speed" refers to the time lag between an event happening, and you start doing something in reaction. Then theres the time required to actually complete your reaction, which is another thing again. It's better referred to as "reaction time", because if it's measured in seconds, which it is, it's time, not speed (which is distance over time).

Human reaction time (when paying attention) ranges from somewhere around 0.8 to 1 second when we're alert but surprised by something unfamiliar or unexpected but doesn't push primal reflex buttons, down to around .3 to .4 seconds for something familiar we are watching for acutely or have practiced responding to repeatedly - high speed "twitch" videogames are a pretty good example of this.

Reaction time has everything to do with how long the information takes to get from your sense organ up to your brain, get processed by your brain, get recognized by your brain, and then for the message to take action to get back down to the appropriate body part(s) to start the reaction.

Your eyelids being pretty damn close to your brain, and your brain having short-circuts for "OH GOD IT'S GOING FOR MY EYE", you blink VERY quickly in response to seeing something headed for your eye.

Your foot being the furthest possible point from your brain, and your brain NOT having special processing for "There's a deer in the road!", it can take a shockingly long time to hit the brakes in a car.

Fighter pilots are specially selected for having very good reaction times, and further trained on reaction times. And then given stimulants to further reduce reaction times. They move at high speed and make fast reactions. Having the Flight advantage is just being handed your own aircraft - it's not being handed fighter pilot training.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by weevis

Thanks but maybe I didn't explain the confusion. You spend 40 points, the rules say you move twice as fast, including twice the top speed and twice the acceleration.

Twice the straight-line acceleration, anyway. Dodge is more than acceleration, however. Doubling your move while flying is no more beneficial for dodging than doubling your move for running.

Plus, GURPS is very much a 'you get what you pay for' system; if you want to be better at dodging because you can fly, you need to pay for it.

They also imply you can easily move in three dimensions now. Seems like this would affect dodge. But it doesn't.

Actually, it does: if you're dodging, choose to retreat, and are able to evade in the vertical plane instead of just horizontal, you get an extra +1 bonus.

[weevis]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Actually, it does: if you're dodging, choose to retreat, and are able to evade in the vertical plane instead of just horizontal, you get an extra +1 bonus.

Stop the presses -- this is the exactly the kind of thing I was asking about in the first place. But I don't see that rule in the GURPS Basic Set. Maybe it is in a supplement? (That I don't own?)