Is it point-efficient to play WoD-style shapeshifters?

[vicky_molokh]

Greetings, all!

Contemplating the weirder types of characters my gaming party and I ever considered playing, I recalled the idea of 'gradual' shapeshifters, i.e. those with forms working as in World of Darkness.

So let's take the simplified Ananasi forms for an example.
Forms are human/Homid, mixed/Lilian, Giant Spider/Pithus and swarm/Crawlerling.
That's 3 Alternate Forms.

They would have roughly the following stats, as per the conversion from WoD:
Lilian: [roughly 227]
ST+6 [60]
DX+6 [120]
HT+4 [40]
Many social traits penalized; not bothering with exact conversion, assume [-20].
Sharp Claws [5]
Sharp Teeth [1]
Extra Legs and/or Extra Arms optional, assume at least [+20]

Pithus: [roughly 187]
ST+8 [80]
DX+4 [80]
HT+6 [60]
Many social traits penalized; not bothering with exact conversion, assume [-40].
Sharp Claws [5]
Fangs [2]
Extra Legs and/or Extra Arms, but probably mitigated by NFM/Ham-Fisted/Bad Grip etc.; so assume at least [+20].

Crawlerling: [200 or so, depending on disads]
ST-10 or so, HP+10 or so [-80]
DX+12 [240]
Diffuse (Swarm +80%) [180].
NFM and similar stuff for lots of negative points.

The question is, is it point efficient to have such a set of Alternate Forms (in addition to some generic 'were-creature features' goodie package that is always on) compared to just being a creature with as many points (300ish, that is) spent on stuff that is always accessible?

Thanks in advance!

[vierasmarius]

Having all three alternate forms costs about 250 points (remember the 10% discount on traits, and that you pay only 15 for each form after the first). To have the best of the first two forms permanently (ST +8, DX +6, HT +6, Claws, Teeth, Arms and Legs) is 245, if you include the full -40 points of Social disadvantages. Adding Diffuse and the higher DX of the third form is an extra 300 points, or 124 points if you can claim the entire -80% for the Temporary Disadvantage: -10 ST (excluding HP).

So, yeah, it actually is point-efficient to buy the three alternate forms, though you could combine the best parts of the first two without a huge extra price tag.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Greetings, all!
[...]
The question is, is it point efficient to have such a set of Alternate Forms (in addition to some generic 'were-creature features' goodie package that is always on) compared to just being a creature with as many points (300ish, that is) spent on stuff that is always accessible?

Multi-form shapehifters are have tremendous versatility. I would much rather devote 15 points to get a swarmling form with IT:Diffuse than to make my all-or nothing "strong guy" form 15 points stronger or tougher. The ability to recycle point totals in order to have 2-3 very impressive yet diverse abilities for the price of one trumps being badass in the same old way, day in and day out. When you add that to the inherent disguise and escape capabilities, mutli-form shape shifters dominate.

...as long as they don't try to spend ten seconds turning in the middle of combat. That's a lethal drawback, but fortunately it's relatively cheap to buy down, since the Reduced Time enhancement is applied to the 15-point base, letting you get it down to a single turn for another 15 points. If you spend another 3-6 points, you can do stuff that "can't happen!!!" like the old gag where you stand partly concealed by a wall and a monster arm comes around and snatches you behind it, then the "monster" proceeds to rampage giving you an alibi.

[blacksmith]

Especially as you can slap alternate ability on subsequent forms it is very cheap for the added versitility.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

Especially as you can slap alternate ability on subsequent forms it is very cheap for the added versitility.

You can't. They're all from the same source, they're already one advantage with an "alternate" price discount scheme for redundancy that gives you a better refund than the AA scheme. Doesn't qualify.

Info from Kromm although that thread in general is a good read on the subject and discussion of how you'd retool AF to us AA instead.

[starslayer]

I am actually big on making my martial arts masters use multiple forms as a method of making them quite effective. Basically alternate form will allow you to cram several VERY different stat/power blocks into the same PC, which can be very useful (size changes can also be great, sometimes it's good to be a SM+8 dragon, sometimes being a SM-2 child would be much preferable even if all other stats stayed the same <not including that strength and hit points would be 80% higher due to size>)

For instance a martial arts master may have:

ST 10
DX 10
IQ 16
HT 14

Trained by a master
Combat reflexes
Alternate form (Iron dragon form), reflexive, reduced time:
-IQ-7
-indomidable
-No fine manipulators
-DX+6
-Striking ST +20

Thus the martial arts master can spend most of the time twisting his beard around and saying strange but applicable things entirely in haiku, but given a moments notice (with 0 time activation and combat reflexes even as an attack is incoming with successful roll) switch to the heavily combat oriented iron dragon form, then when combat is complete switch back to the regular form and write a poem/draw a picture of all the bodies he just mangled

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Multi-form shapehifters are have tremendous versatility. I would much rather devote 15 points to get a swarmling form with IT:Diffuse than to make my all-or nothing "strong guy" form 15 points stronger or tougher. The ability to recycle point totals in order to have 2-3 very impressive yet diverse abilities for the price of one trumps being badass in the same old way, day in and day out. When you add that to the inherent disguise and escape capabilities, mutli-form shape shifters dominate.

...as long as they don't try to spend ten seconds turning in the middle of combat. That's a lethal drawback, but fortunately it's relatively cheap to buy down, since the Reduced Time enhancement is applied to the 15-point base, letting you get it down to a single turn for another 15 points. If you spend another 3-6 points, you can do stuff that "can't happen!!!" like the old gag where you stand partly concealed by a wall and a monster arm comes around and snatches you behind it, then the "monster" proceeds to rampage giving you an alibi.

I'm sure among the many forms, Crawlerling will not be underestimated. But what about the presence of two big-spidery forms?

Or how about we look at the Wolf-breed, which has a total of 5 distinct forms?
Homid/Human,
Glabro:+1 SM strong hairy human with Disturbing Voice,
Crinos: 9-foot-tall Hairy Humanoid with Claws and Fangs,
Hispo: big hairy strong wolf,
and Lupus: a wolf form.

Optionally, with the Required Intermediate Form (F131) limitation, which would bring us to:
Homid (human), Glabro (-5% - unreachable from Hispo and Lupus), Crinos (-10%, unreachable from Lupus, can't directly become Homid), Hispo (-15%, can't become human, can't be reached from Glabro) and Lupus (-10% can't become human, can't be reached from Glabro/Crinos).

[davidtmoore]

One thing that threw me when I tried to stat WOD shapeshifters is the ability to partially transform with a difficult Primar-Urge roll.

Morph? Modular abilities? Stuff it and allow it as a HT/VH skill that breaks the rules?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by davidtmoore

One thing that threw me when I tried to stat WOD shapeshifters is the ability to partially transform with a difficult Primar-Urge roll.

Morph? Modular abilities? Stuff it and allow it as a HT/VH skill that breaks the rules?

In 4e, it's a fairly limited form of Modular Ability.

[Dustin]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I'm sure among the many forms, Crawlerling will not be underestimated. But what about the presence of two big-spidery forms?

The forms have to have important distinctions to be point-efficient. Often the presence/absence of manipulators or an expensive movement form will serve as sufficient justification (point-wise) for another 15 pts in AF.