Shapeshifting cost too high by RAW trying to think it out

[mehrkat]

Hi all,

I know how shapeshifting by RAW works. I as Game Master am considering making a change.

15 points per form for zero cost templates sounds about right its the more powerful form cost that is bothersome. For one thing it makes the cost vastly different depending on your race also the extreme difference between a wizard with shapeshift spell and the shapeshift ability. Dungeon Fantasy allies show it really clearly. 7 points for a shift or over 100 points and I know they have to get appropriate magery and a few other spells but thats still around 40 points and still has lots of other utility for it.

I think the issue is basing it on the racial template instead of some other aspect but if you base it on the characters full character points its too much because it makes it too flexible. I'm considering basing it on 1/3rd character points (minus any points spent on shapeshifting) and 1 per 5 points in the template until, you get to characters total points.

The form you are in most is your base form. Morph altered in a similar way.

Just trying to think it out. What is an abuse of this how does it compare to a similar point character?

[oneofmanynameless]

If you're basing your analysis on comparing the CP efficiency of Powers against a character using GURPS Magic to do the same thing you're going to repeatedly run into the same problem: Powers cost way way more then GURPS Magic. They aren't balanced against eachother at all. Point for point the Magic user will always have more options for fewer points available to them relative to the powers user. Usually the powers user will have less restricted access to the abilities because of not having long cast times or FP costs, but if give people powers with preparation require or costs fatigue on a regular basis you'll find that magic simply outclasses them all the time.

That said, I find that powers, including shapeshifting, are decently balanced against eachother as long as you don't allow super munchkiny builds. So, imo, the solution to the point differential is to not use Magic and Powers in the same game, or to just give the powers characters more points, or for everyone at the table to be on the same page about how the Magic character is going to have more options.

But 1/3 cost for the added template doesn't seem like a bad compromise to me for shapeshifting.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by mehrkat

I think the issue is basing it on the racial template instead of some other aspect but if you base it on the characters full character points its too much because it makes it too flexible. I'm considering basing it on 1/3rd character points (minus any points spent on shapeshifting) and 1 per 5 points in the template until, you get to characters total points.

It seems like you have to be missing the entire underlying logic here.

It's 'based on' the racial template because that's what you lose when you transform. What it's really based on is the value of the change in your character when you transform.

[Anthony]

From the model of alternate abilities, I would probably use 1/5 of the points changed plus the points added. Thus, if shapeshifting into a wolf gives you a package of Bite[1], Four Legs [5], +2 DX (no fine manipulators) [24], +2 Basic Move [10], Horizontal [-10], No Fine Manipulators [-30], that's a total of 40 points changed, zero points added, and costs you [8].

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Anthony

From the model of alternate abilities, I would probably use 1/5 of the points changed plus the points added. Thus, if shapeshifting into a wolf gives you a package of Bite[1], Four Legs [5], +2 DX (no fine manipulators) [24], +2 Basic Move [10], Horizontal [-10], No Fine Manipulators [-30], that's a total of 40 points changed, zero points added, and costs you [8].

I would go with 90% of the points added. There's a clear analogy to the -10% for Accessibiility: Only when invisible or Only when insubstantial: you have the traits only when you are in a different body form that you are free to assume at will.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anthony

From the model of alternate abilities, I would probably use 1/5 of the points changed plus the points added. Thus, if shapeshifting into a wolf gives you a package of Bite[1], Four Legs [5], +2 DX (no fine manipulators) [24], +2 Basic Move [10], Horizontal [-10], No Fine Manipulators [-30], that's a total of 40 points changed, zero points added, and costs you [8].

Originally Posted by whswhs

I would go with 90% of the points added. There's a clear analogy to the -10% for Accessibiility: Only when invisible or Only when insubstantial: you have the traits only when you are in a different body form that you are free to assume at will.

Note if combining these you get more nuance for Alternate Form, which I like - you're replacing a base of [15] with 20% of the points changed - the old [15] would be for someone who changed [75] worth of traits. Well, sorta - given this version would only take a second to switch, instead of the normal (IIRC) 10 seconds, the comparison is actually to Alternate Form (Reduced Time 1/16 +80%) [27], implying a change of roughly [135] for the RAW version... which seems rather on the high side.

If someone shapeshifts into a form that's a net loss, you may want to consider charging 10% of the points lost, in addition to the 20% for points changed. This would be consistent with Switchable. You could think of it as the character is charged 10% of the absolute value of any points lost, 10% of the value of any points gained while the net change is at or below [0], and 90% of the value of any points gained beyond net [0]. That werewolf above is looking at [1] for Horizontal, [3] for NFM, [0.1] for Bite, [0.5] for Four Legs, [2.4] for +2 DX (NFM), and [1] for +2 Basic Move, for a grand total of [8]. If the character also had DR 1 (Flexible -20%) [4] to represent thick fur and Blunt Claws [3], that would be [+6.3] (90% of [7]), for a total of [14.3], rounded up to [15]. If this was offset by Cannot Speak [-15], it would instead become [+1.5] for Cannot Speak, [+.4] for DR 1 (Flexible), and [+.3] for Blunt Claws, for a total of [10.2], rounded up to [11].

[Plane]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I would go with 90% of the points added. There's a clear analogy to the -10% for Accessibiility: Only when invisible or Only when insubstantial: you have the traits only when you are in a different body form that you are free to assume at will.

I think the -10% has more to do with how you lose the advantages if KO'd, since it's 100% if you have P75/P109 "Once On, Stays On" enhancement.

Plus that whole "single, reasonably common external influence" thing which I'd love a list of examples for.

[Kallatari]

Just sharing a rule change concerning Alternate Forms I contemplated long ago but never actually fully explored. The reason I didn't explore it further is because it's math intensive at character creation and doesn't mesh nicely with Affliction (Alternate Form). So take these thoughts for what it's worth.

The Alternate Forms itself was a simple 15 x level, to which you applied modifiers related to changing forms only. The cost and traits of the forms involved have no impact on Alternate Forms itself.

Rather, the thought behind this concept was that if you get a discount for something that only the alternate form has, why don't you also get a discount for traits of your native race that are no longer available in your new form. they are technically just as limited. You therefore apply the Only In Alternate Form -10% to them as well, thus giving a rebate, reducing the overall costs a bit more than the RAW rules for Alternate Form. And then I moved on to adjusting the limitation value based on how many forms actually had the trait.

The concept is mostly based off of Accessibility, Only in Alternate Form, -10%. My interpretation of how this came about is from the generic Accessibility, 50% of the time is normally -20% (according to Accessibility), which in this case you then halve to -10% because you can actively control when that change occurs. No supporting evidence this was actually determined that way, but worked for me.

So extrapolate for multiple forms. Once you have 2 or more forms, you can then go over each and every trait you have, and apply an Accessibility to it, with a value based on the % of forms with the trait, halved since you can control the changes, rounded down (toward 0) to nearest 5%. This works out to this rough table:

- In 81% to 100% of your forms: -0%
- In 57% to 80% of your forms: -5%
- In 32% to 56% of your forms: -10%
- In 7% to 31% of your forms: -15%
- In 1% to 6% of your forms: -20%

So, for example, if you have 3 forms, one of which has ST +2, the other ST +5, and the last ST +10, you would buy ST +2 (in 100% of your forms) at -0%, ST +3 (from +2 to +5 for 66% of your forms) at -5% and ST +5 (from +5 to +10 for 33% of your forms) at -10%. Your ST would therefore cost you (20 + (30 -5%) + (50 -10%) = 20 + 27 + 45 =) 92 points.

(Instead of RAW which would be: ST +2 at 20 points (no modifier as native form), ST +5 at (50 -10% =) 45 points, and ST +10 at (100 - 10% =) 90 points, for a total of 155 points.)

Repeat that for every attribute, trait, etc. As you can see, this is really long to do if you have a lot of traits and/or a lot of different forms, or just a bunch of different enhancements/limitations on a trait for each form.

I personally didn't want to go down that route, but sharing in case someone else wants to explore it further

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

Rather, the thought behind this concept was that if you get a discount for something that only the alternate form has, why don't you also get a discount for traits of your native race that are no longer available in your new form. they are technically just as limited. You therefore apply the Only In Alternate Form -10% to them as well, thus giving a rebate, reducing the overall costs a bit more than the RAW rules for Alternate Form. And then I moved on to adjusting the limitation value based on how many forms actually had the trait.

This just the beginning of a slope that ends in every trait in any form needs to be on your main character sheet, with differing limitations, and all of your disadvantages exist *only* as temporary disadvantages on some of those traits. That's actually the "fair" way of pricing alternate forms, but it's also tremendously complicated, and requires rebuilding the character from the ground up to add a new form, you can't just use the "simple" swap out your race template the basic rule is designed around. If you are going to go that route, you might as well go the whole way.

Personally I prefer the build a character sheet for each form. The total cost of your character is the cost of the most expensive such sheet, plus 15 points per additional one. That's not going to give you a "fair" cost either, in that you can still design abusive builds with it, but stays *fairly* close to the official values, and is just as simple, while closing the easiest to exploit loopholes.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

Just sharing a rule change concerning Alternate Forms I contemplated long ago but never actually fully explored. The reason I didn't explore it further is because it's math intensive at character creation and doesn't mesh nicely with Affliction (Alternate Form). So take these thoughts for what it's worth.

The Alternate Forms itself was a simple 15 x level, to which you applied modifiers related to changing forms only. The cost and traits of the forms involved have no impact on Alternate Forms itself.

Rather, the thought behind this concept was that if you get a discount for something that only the alternate form has, why don't you also get a discount for traits of your native race that are no longer available in your new form. they are technically just as limited. You therefore apply the Only In Alternate Form -10% to them as well, thus giving a rebate, reducing the overall costs a bit more than the RAW rules for Alternate Form.

I feel this would actually tend to increase the cost of having an Alternate Form. Just dealing with someone with two forms, let's look at four cases. In all four, you lose [50] from your base form when transforming. In the first, you don't gain anything (this can be appropriate for a "disguise" form, like turning into a child or similar). In the second, you gain back the [50] in the form of other Advantages (much as with Anthony's werewolf). In the third, you gain back the [50] and get another [50] on top of that. For the last, you gain back the [50] and get another [100] on top of that.

In the first case, RAW has you paying just [15]. Under your suggestion, it's [15], minus 10% of what was lost (so [-5]), so a net [10] - yours is cheaper. In the second case, RAW again has you paying just [15]. Under your suggestion, it's [15], minus 10% of what was lost (so [-5]), plus 90% of what was gained (so [45]), for net [55] - yours is more expensive. In the third case, RAW has you paying [15] plus 90% of the difference, or [45], for a total of [60]. Under your suggestion, it's [15], minus 10% of what was lost ([-5]), plus 90% of what was gained (so [90]), for a net [100] - yours is more expensive. For the final case, RAW has you paying [15] plus 90% of the difference, or [90], for a total of [105]. Under your suggestion, it's [15], minus 10% of what was lost (so -5), plus 90% of what was gained (so 145), for a total of [155]. So, [15] vs [10], [15] vs [55], [60] vs [100], and finally [105] vs [145].

Unless you meant the lost traits get both the -10% discount and are discounted from the cost of the Alternate Form. That makes Alternate Form consistently cheaper - above, the prices would be [15] vs [10], [15] vs [10], [60] vs [55], and [105] vs [100]. Note in that case you also risk, at higher levels, allowing for Alternate Form to essentially be a net Feature or even Disadvantage - a character who loses [200] when changing ends up with a base cost for Alternate Form of [-5], so if the new form is comparable or inferior to their original form, that's a net Disadvantage, despite it being a beneficial trait.