DF: Spell healing limits.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by WingedKagouti

I personally view the self-healing penality as a misguided attempt at combatting an imbalance that does not exist (or at least is minescule compared to the other stuff Magic allows). Or to stop the always loved "He totally should have healed me and not himself. I'm more important to the team because reasons!"

I think it's more of a flavor thing than a game balance thing. If you break your own leg, you probably want someone else to splint it, even if you're a trained doctor. Perhaps magic should work analogously...

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by Gnome

I think it's more of a flavor thing than a game balance thing. If you break your own leg, you probably want someone else to splint it, even if you're a trained doctor. Perhaps magic should work analogously...

You'll usually want someone else to splint your leg (or arm) due to reach, stability and the amount of hands needed. Reach is covered by the various healing spells being Regular spells (-1 per yard of distance), hands is covered by the amount of ritual you need to cast the spell and for a crippled limb the Restoration spell automatically makes sure that things are in order (and if you're not using the Instant version, it does take a month to fully fix it).

Another issue is that the penality also applies to a simple, shallow cut across your stomach, which would give no penality to a First Aid roll to bandage yourself or a Physician roll to provide long term care.

If you're thinking about any pain modifiers, then those apply to all actions and not just healing yourself.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by WingedKagouti

You'll usually want someone else to splint your leg (or arm) due to reach, stability and the amount of hands needed. Reach is covered by the various healing spells being Regular spells (-1 per yard of distance), hands is covered by the amount of ritual you need to cast the spell and for a crippled limb the Restoration spell automatically makes sure that things are in order (and if you're not using the Instant version, it does take a month to fully fix it).

Another issue is that the penality also applies to a simple, shallow cut across your stomach, which would give no penality to a First Aid roll to bandage yourself or a Physician roll to provide long term care.

If you're thinking about any pain modifiers, then those apply to all actions and not just healing yourself.

I think the splint example was a bad one, since it lead you to think I was talking about physical constraints. I wouldn't try to be my own doctor for any injury or ailment, even if reach and so forth weren't relevant. The parallel expressions "A physician who treats himself has a fool for a patient" and "A man who is his own lawyer has a fool for a client" are equally apt here. When you are personally involved, it's harder to be objective. If the skill of magically healing someone includes understanding something about the nature of their injuries and then using mana to knit the wounds together, healing yourself could increase the probability of error, because your thinking is clouded by the fact that you're experiencing the pain of those injuries while trying to heal those very same injuries.
Basic doesn't specifically prohibit using Physician or First Aid on yourself, but it does seem to imply that the patient is someone other than yourself, and I would give hefty penalties to anyone trying to patch themselves up, for essentially the same reasons as above.

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by Gnome

If the skill of magically healing someone includes understanding something about the nature of their injuries and then using mana to knit the wounds together, healing yourself could increase the probability of error, because your thinking is clouded by the fact that you're experiencing the pain of those injuries while trying to heal those very same injuries.

As I said in my post, pain modifiers are a different subject than a blanket -4 to heal self "because reasons". Minor and Major Healing both have a 1 second casting time, I would argue that such a short period is not enough to have any impact from pain related to the healing process alone. For (non-Instant) Regeneration and Restoration the healing process itself is a month, once again putting it out of the scope of the actual spellcasting.

Basic doesn't specifically prohibit using Physician or First Aid on yourself, but it does seem to imply that the patient is someone other than yourself, and I would give hefty penalties to anyone trying to patch themselves up, for essentially the same reasons as above.

I can see an argument for long term healing from Physician suffering from a First Person Perspective Penality if the treatment causes discomfort/pain and the character does not have High Pain Tolerance or something similar. For First Aid I would not apply any additional modifiers on top of general pain, the ability to reach and hands available for the task.

For both Physician and First Aid, I'd want the character to do a review of the damage first of course (with no/easy rolls for obvious stuff). A Diagnosis roll should probably suffer from not being able to take a step back to have an overview. Failing a Diagnosis roll would suggest an incorrect treatment, which would penalize Physician/First Aid.

[benz72]

Originally Posted by Gnome

If the skill of magically healing someone includes understanding something about the nature of their injuries and then using mana to knit the wounds together, healing yourself could increase the probability of error, because your thinking is clouded by the fact that you're experiencing the pain of those injuries while trying to heal those very same injuries.

It could also reduce the probability of error from miscommunication between doctor and patient. I don't know how important those 'rate your pain' assessments are to diagnosis, but I'm pretty sure those are widely variant based on patient impressions of what 'worst pain imaginable' is. Similarly, a doctor who has himself for a patient has to be egregiously self delusional to withhold pertinent information, &c.

Other than distraction by pain what are your primary concerns with treating (or representing) oneself?
If it is fear of the outcome would you recommend applying the penalties not just to treating oneself but also to treating loved ones (Dependents)?

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by benz72

It could also reduce the probability of error from miscommunication between doctor and patient. I don't know how important those 'rate your pain' assessments are to diagnosis, but I'm pretty sure those are widely variant based on patient impressions of what 'worst pain imaginable' is. Similarly, a doctor who has himself for a patient has to be egregiously self delusional to withhold pertinent information, &c.

Other than distraction by pain what are your primary concerns with treating (or representing) oneself?
If it is fear of the outcome would you recommend applying the penalties not just to treating oneself but also to treating loved ones (Dependents)?

I think the biggest danger is strong investment in the outcome. It's just hard to be intellectually objective when you have so much at stake personally. Hence the aphorisms that hold equally of doctors and lawyers. So maybe it's reasonable to assess penalties for self-healing whether a caster is more like a doctor, using mana as a tool, or more like a lawyer, asking the spirits for aid.

[simply Nathan]

Originally Posted by benz72

I don't know how important those 'rate your pain' assessments are to diagnosis, but I'm pretty sure those are widely variant based on patient impressions of what 'worst pain imaginable' is.

They seemed it weird that I was never rating anything higher than a 4. Except when the gases started trying to escape the night after my surgery, leaving me lying on the floor at home unable to move from the pain...worst pain in my life, first time something physical felt like it even approached the emotional pain of my first breakup. I rated that an 8.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by benz72

It could also reduce the probability of error from miscommunication between doctor and patient. I don't know how important those 'rate your pain' assessments are to diagnosis, but I'm pretty sure those are widely variant based on patient impressions of what 'worst pain imaginable' is.

I'm the child of an engineer; the first time the ER triage nurse tried that scale on me I complained about the lack of units, and then promptly applied some examples so he could calibrate against my own experience ("My cluster migraines were a 10, my dislocated ankle that took 8 weeks to heal was a 7, this is a 5 but it's inside my ribcage so that's scary.")

Which just goes to show that miscommunication can just as much be a problem with the doctor. GURPS only really applies pain penalties as the momentary shock penalties. There are long-term pain penalties, but there aren't any rules for suffering from them due to regular old injury; they're for Afflictions like poisons, diseases, or powers. So yeah. Also, they post-date the -4 to heal self rule, I'm pretty sure.

Or to put it another way: Are we surprised there's yet another part of the magic spells that don't quite fit harmoniously with the core system?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Bruno

.

Or to put it another way: Are we surprised there's yet another part of the magic spells that don't quite fit harmoniously with the core system?

As in many other cases, this part of Magic predates what is _now_ the "core system".

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

As in many other cases, this part of Magic predates what is _now_ the "core system".

Pretty sure it's a 2nd edition artifact, with a chance of being 1st edition. Back when shock penalties were uncapped, for example.