Specific Question: Shapeshifting, Accessibiliy, Berserk

[Kizara]

Originally Posted by younglorax

What I don't like about that is that you then need to meet the SC(6) to leave the berserk state.

Then choose a higher SC number for less of a point discount.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by younglorax

Billy Berserker (human) turns into a bear (100 CP) when he goes berserk, and turns back to a human as soon as he regains his senses. How do I model this?

My thought:
Disadvantage: Berserk
Advantage: Alternate Form (Accessibility: only when Berserk, -40%) [63]


Question 1: Is -40% reasonable for this? It seems similar to "Only one side of a split personality", but since it's essentially a combat ability, and Berserk is likely to coincide with combat, I thought it might be too generous.

Question 2: Is it reasonable to apply it to the whole advantage (not just the 15 CP base cost)? Since he has to be berserk to activate it and to maintain it, it seemed like a perfect case for applying it to the whole thing, but I'm not certain.

Thanks!

In third edition, Werebears automatically turned to bear form when they went berserk. Sounds nice but was game impractical in play. For the next three full turns all the character could do was transfomr. Coulnd not move, could not attack could not defend. Unless everyone around ran away, the would be Were Bear was subject to attack for three ful turns and generally dies before completing the transformation.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

In third edition, Werebears automatically turned to bear form when they went berserk. Sounds nice but was game impractical in play. For the next three full turns all the character could do was transfomr. Coulnd not move, could not attack could not defend. Unless everyone around ran away, the would be Were Bear was subject to attack for three ful turns and generally dies before completing the transformation.

My solution dispenses with this, since you only enter berserk state after changing. Now, I would probably give it active change and/or reduced time so even if the transformation takes some seconds, you only spend 1 turn incapacitated by it.

[younglorax]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

In third edition, Werebears automatically turned to bear form when they went berserk. Sounds nice but was game impractical in play. For the next three full turns all the character could do was transfomr. Coulnd not move, could not attack could not defend. Unless everyone around ran away, the would be Were Bear was subject to attack for three ful turns and generally dies before completing the transformation.

Yeah, I thought of that. I'd enhance AF with Reduced Time 5, making the change instantaneous.

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

IMHO, the best build would be to take Uncontrolable Trigger: When I would enter a berserk state if I had the disadvantage, terminal condition (leaving the berserk state) and give the bear form the full blown berserk disadvantage with Self Control(6) and Battle Rage

I'm not sure I understand this build. What are you applying Uncontrollable Trigger to? And why is it different for the bear form to have Berserk instead of the human (native) form?

EDIT: Wait, I think I get it: You give the bear Battle Rage, and then the character controls when he becomes a bear, but while he's a bear then he goes berserk anytime he enters combat. Right? If so, I still don't understand what you're using Uncontrollable Trigger for.

[nick012000]

Originally Posted by younglorax

I'm not sure I understand this build. What are you applying Uncontrollable Trigger to? And why is it different for the bear form to have Berserk instead of the human (native) form?

EDIT: Wait, I think I get it: You give the bear Battle Rage, and then the character controls when he becomes a bear, but while he's a bear then he goes berserk anytime he enters combat. Right? If so, I still don't understand what you're using Uncontrollable Trigger for.

I think he's saying "I turn into a bear whenever I go berserk, and go into a Battle Rage almost automatically when I turn into a bear."

I can't remember if Battle Rage is all that different from a regular Berserk, though.

[Diomedes]

Originally Posted by nick012000

I think he's saying "I turn into a bear whenever I go berserk, and go into a Battle Rage almost automatically when I turn into a bear."

I can't remember if Battle Rage is all that different from a regular Berserk, though.

Battle Rage makes you go berserk whenever you enter a battle, not just whenever you or someone important to you takes 1/4 HP damage.

It seems unnecessary, though. If triggering Berserk triggers your Alternate Form, you will still be berserk after you change.

[Kuroshima]

The idea here is that you don't have the berserk disadvantage while outside of the alternate form. I personally would require Battle Rage for this build, specially if it can take 10 seconds to change.

Uncontrollable trigger is used to force a change when the conditions are met.

[Gnomasz]

Originally Posted by younglorax

My thought:
Disadvantage: Berserk
Advantage: Alternate Form (Accessibility: only when Berserk, -40%) [63]


Question 1: Is -40% reasonable for this? It seems similar to "Only one side of a split personality", but since it's essentially a combat ability, and Berserk is likely to coincide with combat, I thought it might be too generous.

I'd say it is similar to Unconscious Only and Uncontrollable. Maybe Uncontrollable Trigger, since berserk rage isn't an item, but it is easy to trigger; rarity depends on the self-control number.

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Given that the bear form is a combat form, and the player will go Berserk mostly in combat, I'd call it a very minor limitation, not more than -10%.

Yes, it looks very comfortable to change into a bear in combat, but it is a destructive ability, especially when berserk, and it is dangerous. There is a reason for tripling the Uncontrollable Trigger limitation for destructive adventages [P107]. If the Berserker would have Battle Rage, he would change into a bear and attack everyone nearby just becose one drunk guy tried to hit him.


Keep in mind, that if you'll give Berserk Disadvantage to a bear form, to reduce point cost, you'll get 90% of Berserk's point cost, while 100% if you'll give Berserk to your character. It has a reason, too: the difference is when you lose the power to change: you aren't Berserk anymore, or still you are.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Gnomasz

I'd say it is similar to Unconscious Only and Uncontrollable. Maybe Uncontrollable Trigger, since berserk rage isn't an item, but it is easy to trigger; rarity depends on the self-control number.

Yes, it looks very comfortable to change into a bear in combat, but it is a destructive ability, especially when berserk, and it is dangerous. There is a reason for tripling the Uncontrollable Trigger limitation for destructive adventages [P107]. If the Berserker would have Battle Rage, he would change into a bear and attack everyone nearby just becose one drunk guy tried to hit him.


Keep in mind, that if you'll give Berserk Disadvantage to a bear form, to reduce point cost, you'll get 90% of Berserk's point cost, while 100% if you'll give Berserk to your character. It has a reason, too: the difference is when you lose the power to change: you aren't Berserk anymore, or still you are.

Options:
Berserk on the character, uncontrolable trigger on shapeshifting: You can not defend while changing, and if forced to revert to your base form, you're still berserking
Berserk on the alternate form: If forced to go back to your base form, you snap out of berserk
Berserk as a temporary disadvantage on alternate form, no uncontrolable trigger: You can not enter berserk involuntarily, but you don't get many points for it.

[younglorax]

Originally Posted by Gnomasz

I'd say it is similar to Unconscious Only and Uncontrollable. Maybe Uncontrollable Trigger, since berserk rage isn't an item, but it is easy to trigger; rarity depends on the self-control number.

What would you say the value is for each Self-Control number? Bear in mind also that a berserker can voluntarily trigger it with a successful Will roll.

Yes, it looks very comfortable to change into a bear in combat, but it is a destructive ability, especially when berserk, and it is dangerous. There is a reason for tripling the Uncontrollable Trigger limitation for destructive adventages [P107]. If the Berserker would have Battle Rage, he would change into a bear and attack everyone nearby just becose one drunk guy tried to hit him.

I agree with you about Battle Rage, but I can't really see the problem with becoming a bear when berserk. Generally when you go berserk you are in combat or should be, so being a bear makes sense (unless you could do more damage not as a bear, but in that case why buy Shapeshifting to begin with?).

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Berserk as a temporary disadvantage on alternate form, no uncontrolable trigger: You can not enter berserk involuntarily, but you don't get many points for it.

Is your thought that in this case you voluntarily stop using Alternate Form which would automatically end your berserk-ness? That doesn't exactly seem in keeping with why berserk is a disadvantage: You get the limited combat options, but not the chance of attacking your allies.