Maximum Duration vs. Limited Use

[Anders]

Why is Limited Use worth so much less than Maximum Duration. If I take Limited Use 1/day I can use a continuous ability for 1 minute per day* (-40%). If I take Maximum Duration, 5 minutes, I can use it half the time (-50%). The second one seems more useful.

* from Basic Set, p. 112: "For most advantages, each "use" is 1 minute of activation."

[Donny Brook]

IMO, a 'use' for an ongoing trait (e.g. Flight) should be an hour, like it was in 3e

[Anders]

That may be so, but it's not RAW and these limitation values are RAW.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Anders

Why is Limited Use worth so much less than Maximum Duration. If I take Limited Use 1/day I can use a continuous ability for 1 minute per day* (-40%). If I take Maximum Duration, 5 minutes, I can use it half the time (-50%). The second one seems more useful.

* from Basic Set, p. 112: "For most advantages, each "use" is 1 minute of activation."

I just use limited uses for instant things anyway.

[Varyon]

There are a lot of problems stemming from the "one use is one minute" feature of many Limitations, like Limited Use and Costs FP. I believe Maximum Duration is generally relatively fairly-priced when it comes to actual use cases, so modifying pre-existing Limitations like Limited Use and Costs FP to be more in line with Maximum Duration would probably be a good idea. Honestly, a revamping of that whole family of Limitations - Limited Use, Costs FP, Takes Recharge, Preparation Required (which has a built in "only one use can be ready at a time"), Maximum Duration, etc - would be welcome.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Anders

Why is Limited Use worth so much less than Maximum Duration. If I take Limited Use 1/day I can use a continuous ability for 1 minute per day* (-40%). If I take Maximum Duration, 5 minutes, I can use it half the time (-50%). The second one seems more useful.
* from Basic Set, p. 112: "For most advantages, each "use" is 1 minute of activation."

They were not designed to be used on the same advantages. You take limited use for abilities that are normally off (which tend to be those where 1 minute is a long time), it was primarily intended as a modifier for attacks, maximum duration for abilities that you would normally leave on all the time. There are a couple other things like that in the modifiers system, where the modifiers originally priced for attacks are quite different from the ones originally priced for utility advantages. There's a reason all modifiers are explicitly called out as subject to GM veto, over and above the usual one - they were never all intended to apply to all advantages.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Varyon

There are a lot of problems stemming from the "one use is one minute" feature of many Limitations, like Limited Use and Costs FP. I believe Maximum Duration is generally relatively fairly-priced when it comes to actual use cases, so modifying pre-existing Limitations like Limited Use and Costs FP to be more in line with Maximum Duration would probably be a good idea. Honestly, a revamping of that whole family of Limitations - Limited Use, Costs FP, Takes Recharge, Preparation Required (which has a built in "only one use can be ready at a time"), Maximum Duration, etc - would be welcome.

Yeah, my instinct is to double the value of a lot of those and leave Maximum Duration unchanged.

Originally Posted by malloyd

They were not designed to be used on the same advantages. You take limited use for abilities that are normally off (which tend to be those where 1 minute is a long time), it was primarily intended as a modifier for attacks, maximum duration for abilities that you would normally leave on all the time. There are a couple other things like that in the modifiers system, where the modifiers originally priced for attacks are quite different from the ones originally priced for utility advantages. There's a reason all modifiers are explicitly called out as subject to GM veto, over and above the usual one - they were never all intended to apply to all advantages.

That makes a lot of sense. I still think a lot of them are underpriced.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by malloyd

You take limited use for abilities that are normally off... maximum duration for abilities that you would normally leave on all the time.

Max Duration even explicitly states that it's only for switchable abilities that you could potentially leave on all the time.

Any time you see a duration of one minute, someone was thinking "plenty for one combat / skill challenge; long enough you don't need to track it during combat time; too short to last for long narrative sections". If the ability you're building isn't one that's meant to be used for something very like an attack, an instant burst of one-time effect (Climbing buff to get up a wall, burst of Obscure/Invis to ditch pursuit in a chase scene, etc), you probably don't want Limited Use. Max Duration does become a significant Limitation as it blocks use in those long narrative sequences. You can fly to the top of a building, maybe elsewhere in the city, but you can't fly across the continent, hover indefinitely in an aerial stakeout for a week, wander everywhere while Invisible to spy and thieve at will, etc. "Always On" enables a lot of narrative-scope plot-problem-bypassing behavior that you don't run into when you're only thinking in combat time.

they were never all intended to apply to all advantages.

A good point, and one worth keeping in mind for all modifiers, all the time. On the forum, we often tend to assume that any modifier can be ported to any ability build, but that's not true -- especially not for modifiers that are defined in the section for one specific advantage. They're not necessarily a terrible starting point, but pulling a modifier out of one Advantage to use in a different Advantage is likely to be even more problematic than should normally be expected.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Max Duration even explicitly states that it's only for switchable abilities that you could potentially leave on all the time.

Any time you see a duration of one minute, someone was thinking "plenty for one combat / skill challenge; long enough you don't need to track it during combat time; too short to last for long narrative sections". If the ability you're building isn't one that's meant to be used for something very like an attack, an instant burst of one-time effect (Climbing buff to get up a wall, burst of Obscure/Invis to ditch pursuit in a chase scene, etc), you probably don't want Limited Use. Max Duration does become a significant Limitation as it blocks use in those long narrative sequences. You can fly to the top of a building, maybe elsewhere in the city, but you can't fly across the continent, hover indefinitely in an aerial stakeout for a week, wander everywhere while Invisible to spy and thieve at will, etc. "Always On" enables a lot of narrative-scope plot-problem-bypassing behavior that you don't run into when you're only thinking in combat time.

A good point, and one worth keeping in mind for all modifiers, all the time. On the forum, we often tend to assume that any modifier can be ported to any ability build, but that's not true -- especially not for modifiers that are defined in the section for one specific advantage. They're not necessarily a terrible starting point, but pulling a modifier out of one Advantage to use in a different Advantage is likely to be even more problematic than should normally be expected.

An issue here is that, at least prior to publication of Maximum Duration (in PU8 to my knowledge, although it may have shown up in an earlier book that I'm unaware of), Limited Use was meant for use for abilities that could normally be left on indefinitely (that's where the "one minute per use" aspect comes from); same with Costs FP. Someone with Flight (Costs FP -5%) uses, IIRC, 1 FP for the first minute, and if they opt to continue flying they use 1 FP for every 2 additional minutes. For a typical FP 10 character, they'll generally want to stop after 11 minutes of flight, as beyond that they'll be below 1/3rd FP and slow down to half speed. They would then need to rest for an hour (half an hour with Fit) before flying again; they do have the option of pushing themselves for longer, or interrupting their rest to fly again in the case of an emergency, but at reduced speed and, shortly, taking HP damage and risking falling unconscious (which happens automatically if they reach -1xFP). Compare this to Flight (Maximum Duration 12 hours -5%), for a character who can theoretically* fly for up to half a day, and once they stop they have to wait (not rest, simply wait) for 5 minutes before doing it again. They do have the disadvantage of being literally incapable** of flying again during that time, while the Costs FP character could take off again (at the cost of more FP), but I'd say the Max Duration character has the upper wing, here.

*Flight should drain FP comparably to Hiking (if traveling at up to 1/4th Top Speed), Jogging (if traveling at up to 1/2 Top Speed), or Sprinting (if traveling faster), so the character should take an hour rest after 6 hours of flight
**Powers includes some Extra Effort rules that I know can temporarily add on Enhancements, and even if not stated should certainly be able to temporarily remove Limitations. So a flyer who finds himself or herself needing to fly during that required downtime may still be able to do so, via spending FP and making a Will roll.

[Curmudgeon]

Another difference between Maximum Duration and Limited Uses is that you have to wait five minutes before trying to use again an ability that has Maximum Duration, whereas if an ability has Limited Uses: 9 per day, those nine uses could be used sequentially one right after another without delay.