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Old 11-16-2022, 10:44 AM   #31
KarlKost
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
Default Re: Points without total

I as a GM like to always keep tabs on the CP totals of my players, since I dont like to "reduce their point cost" due to disadvantages gained in play. Also, since ALL advantages must be paid for, I like to also keep their "karmic balance" fair.

So for example, if a player is cursed by a witch and gains an unnatural feature, or a player ally is murdered by the bad guy for dramatic purposes or any such, I dont like to just simply "though luck punk lol".

Instead, I keep those points "in the bank", as extra bonus points.

Those I'll use to buy traits for the player, that arent the result of personal growth in experience (acquired knowledge in the form of skills, magic spells, attributes etc), but rather to traits "gained from the universe", like a new ally or contact, increased wealth, rank, magic toy etc.

So, this traits still need to be brought up with CPs, but the players can opt to use their "karmic points" instead of their bonus CP, which they can therefore save for the stuff they have inside their brains and bodies.

I am very strict with my "karmic rules" thou; a character that earns traits to which he cannot pay with either Karmic points or bonus CP, gets into "debt", which must be paid for the next session. This debt can be paid with CPs normally in the next session, or if still lacking, will take the form of new disadvantages or lost advantages.

Like they say, Karma is a b...

So this is why I always keep tabs of the points count of my players. I enjoy the fairness of it - particularly because I never liked the fact that disadvantages gained in play are "free", while advantages must be paid, even when gained exclusively by roleplaying (like a new ally).
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Old 11-16-2022, 11:06 AM   #32
KarlKost
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
Default Re: Points without total

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Originally Posted by lugaid View Post
I can understand the intent behind tracking point values, but as time has gone on and people have increasingly noted that point totals don't really do a lot to compare two different characters, that intent seems to have lost its value. There are times where it might be helpful to the Referee to use a point value to balance in-game consequences (a Secret turning into other disadvantages when revealed, for instance), or as a means to track intangibles like a character working through a disadvantage (say, using earned points as an abstracted way to find out when an Alcoholic hits bottom and has a moment of clarity, or when a Kleptomaniac finally gets up the drive to seek therapy), but I think in general that it isn't something that people should go out of their way to track. For the most part, just let consequences fall where they fall. To summarize: the point total of a character isn't really worth tracking, but the point values of individual character elements might have value for some game purposes.
But that could be said even of freshly "printed" characters. One 100 cp character is not the same as another 100 cp. A player can very much build a worthless 100 char, while another builds an outstanding one with the same 100 points. One can build a one poney trick that once every 5 sessions saves the day, while another is a Jack of all trades that constantly steals the spot.

The idea of points is an abstraction so that it wont just be completely random and thus stablishing some boundaries, so that one player wont be Superman and the other be Bob the Normal, and thus adding a certain degree of balance and also of personal development
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Old 11-16-2022, 11:15 AM   #33
KarlKost
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
Default Re: Points without total

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Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
Like whswhs who doesn't track sessions, I don't give out flat exp awards. Some PCs did more, some less, thus some earn more and some less. While PCs generally earn exp rewards commiserate to the effort the Character went through in game, some can earn rewards above and beyond, or far, far lesser depending on circumstances.

Now I do keep track of exp rewards, as well as Advantages and Disadvantages earned in play, however it depends on the genre as to whether or not new Characters are boosted to the party's current "level".

An "old school. paper mans, D&Desque" game? No, start at 250 points regardless of current party totals...

A kitchen-sink Final Fantasyesque campaign? Sure, I might figure out some average or mean that new PCs are boosted to.
I do give flat xp rewards for all players. I dont like players to feel punished in their game styles. Sometimes some chars are just better built or just simply more fit for the stories being played; some other times, a player may be more shy than others who are more communicative. I do therefore reward my table, not the players individually
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Old 11-16-2022, 11:38 AM   #34
KarlKost
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
Default Re: Points without total

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Something I've considered in the past is allowing players to "respec" their characters, by basically setting up some invested points (in largely-unused skills, Advantages, etc) to be lost and then doubling their per-session point gain, with the extra coming from the pool setup to be sacrificed, until those points have been redistributed. I could see Disadvantages gained during play (including cases where an Advantage is lost during play, such as if your Ally gets killed) following a similar path - rather than gaining [50] to spend on whatever as soon as you are struck blind (or the RAW, where you gain nothing), you instead gain some extra points for the next several sessions until that [50] has been accounted for.
Yes, that's exactly what I do, "Karmic Balance", and I do it for both gained disadvantages / lost advantages or gained advantages / lost advantages that happens during the game. So for example, if you managed to find the "monk of the 5 peaks" in Tibet and convinced him to heal your Blindness, you are now -50 CPs in debt at your "Karmic Points". But dont worry, next session you came in contact with an alien parasite, and now you are Terminally ill, so not only you paid your Karma costs in full, but you'll in fact now have an additional 50 points of "positive Karma" to be gained! (while you're still alive that is).

Or it could be that, althought yes, the monk healed your eyes, that came with the cost of much of your life force, so you now lost 2 HT, 1 ST and 1 DX.

Those "Karma Points" are mine as a GM to use - not the player. I define how they'll be used. So for instance, after raiding the "Cult of the Red Sun", the players "won" a -30 CP Enemy (either individually or the entire table), they now have 30 CPs of "Good Karma" to be gained, which I as the GM will define what will be. I can allow them instantly "buy off" some disadvantages - for example, thwarting the evil cult's plans was what they needed to lift their curse, or the events where so impactful that the player finally decides to quit the alcohool addiction, and so on. Or, for example, I could say that the Cult of the Red Sun had been closely watched by the Order of Dawn, who long had suspected of foul play, and they took notice of the players' actions and have decided to recruit them, so if in one hand the players now have a powerful enemy, they also won a powerful Patron. Or it could be just simply that they found magic items in the Cult's castle that are worth 30 CPs to each player (in case the all players end up having this Enemy).

Sometimes I hold on to those points for 1 or 2 sessions, often cancelling them off with other traits. Sometimes I "spend" those in small doses over other traits.

Whatever the case, I try to have the "Karmic Balance" of anyone of my players to never go above 15-20 CPs, either positively or negatively. And I also allow my players to give suggestions about what to do with those, but it's ultimately my decision.

This system has the interesting effect of balancing my players expectations; after disaster befalls, they are sure to expect a blessing, but they also are wary of receiving too many "free" blessings, since they know that their luck wont run forever.

It creates a massively interesting game dynamic, I recommend to anyone willing to try it.

Edit: sorry for multi posting and for not being able to express in a more objective way, constantly repeating myself. I try to avoid doing it, but I just cant manage to

Last edited by KarlKost; 11-16-2022 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 11-16-2022, 09:23 PM   #35
lugaid
 
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Join Date: Aug 2004
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Default Re: Points without total

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
But that could be said even of freshly "printed" characters. One 100 cp character is not the same as another 100 cp. A player can very much build a worthless 100 char, while another builds an outstanding one with the same 100 points. One can build a one poney trick that once every 5 sessions saves the day, while another is a Jack of all trades that constantly steals the spot.
The reason to have points for new characters is so that a player or whoever doesn't just take everything, and point costs are set not to make two characters equivalent but instead to channel player choices toward or away from various traits. They have very limited purpose after that, since anything gained or lost in play is, as it were, diegetic by definition. Points are not diegetic in that sense.

Quote:
The idea of points is an abstraction so that it wont just be completely random and thus stablishing some boundaries, so that one player wont be Superman and the other be Bob the Normal, and thus adding a certain degree of balance and also of personal development
Right, which has no relevance to anything after initial character generation. Unless the GM doesn't trust themself to be "fair" in play and requires some sort of highly imprecise metric to create an artificial sense of fairness, because points, as many have pointed out, do not actually measure fairness.
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Old 11-21-2022, 01:34 PM   #36
mburr0003
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Default Re: Points without total

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Originally Posted by lugaid View Post
...because points, as many have pointed out, do not actually measure fairness.
I prefer to say that "points do not accurately measure power", however they do give a rough awareness of what could be possible.
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