Dogfighting: Gunner or Vehicle Skill?

[Tallor]

For vehicles that shoot with relatively static weapons (braced catapults, mounted weapons on the front of a plane), would the attack roll actually be a Vehicle skill roll, since the trick is pointing the vehicle at the target? What do you think?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Tallor

For vehicles that shoot with relatively static weapons (braced catapults, mounted weapons on the front of a plane), would the attack roll actually be a Vehicle skill roll, since the trick is pointing the vehicle at the target? What do you think?

The rule is definitely that you attack with Gunner, though you may need to make some control rolls for the maneuvers that put you in a position where you can make that attack.

EDIT: And I think this is very fair, really: you do need to point the vehicle to point the gun, but you need to figure out where to point the gun, which is not a small problem. Obviously a fixed mounting weapon's going to differ (by familiarity) from the same weapon in a different sort of mounting.

(Aside, note that naval weapons almost never are actually fixed relative to the ship. They're at least a little bit aimable.)

[Tallor]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The rule is definitely that you attack with Gunner, though you may need to make some control rolls for the maneuvers that put you in a position where you can make that attack.

EDIT: And I think this is very fair, really: you do need to point the vehicle to point the gun, but you need to figure out where to point the gun, which is not a small problem. Obviously a fixed mounting weapon's going to differ (by familiarity) from the same weapon in a different sort of mounting.

(Aside, note that naval weapons almost never are actually fixed relative to the ship. They're at least a little bit aimable.)

A control roll and a gunner roll? Maybe...

[Phantasm]

Here's a simplified version of dogfighting combat, which is how I'd play it:

Contest of Piloting vs Piloting to get a favorable maneuvering for attacking. The Hnd stat comes into play here.

Gunner (Machine Gun or Rockets) or Artillery (Guided Missile) for the actual attack. If using multi-second deals - like the system in Spaceships - use the Acc of the weapon to adjust the target number, along with Size, Speed, and Range modifiers, as at least part of the time will effectively be taking Aim maneuvers.

Pilot-Based Vehicular Dodge roll to avoid incoming attacks.

That help?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Tallor

A control roll and a gunner roll? Maybe...

Well, if you're actually using the combat rules (...not necessarily very good for this sort of thing...) you need to get your target into a position where you can shoot them, which might or might not involve control rolls, then make the shot with a Gunner roll.

If you try to hack up some kind of abstract dogfighting system instead, some kind of piloting roll or probably contest should be used to get a firing position, with a Gunner roll to determine what you actually manage to do with that position.

[weby]

You fire with gunner skill.

In 4th edition there is no limit based on the vehicle skill. In Third edition the Gunner skill of weapons like on a WWII fighter plane were limited to a max of pilot -3 and it caused "interesting" effects where a single rear MG was way more powerful in effect than all the forward firing guns as the rear gunner had an effective +3 to hit.

That being said: I highly recommend using dog fight rules for combat where the weapons are like that, the requirement to win the quick contest of the chase to be able to fire then uses the vehicle skill for the "allow firing" part.

[Tallor]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

Here's a simplified version of dogfighting combat, which is how I'd play it:

Contest of Piloting vs Piloting to get a favorable maneuvering for attacking. The Hnd stat comes into play here.

Gunner (Machine Gun or Rockets) or Artillery (Guided Missile) for the actual attack. If using multi-second deals - like the system in Spaceships - use the Acc of the weapon to adjust the target number, along with Size, Speed, and Range modifiers, as at least part of the time will effectively be taking Aim maneuvers.

Pilot-Based Vehicular Dodge roll to avoid incoming attacks.

That help?

After a bit of research (read: watching War Thunder gameplay with Squire), I've come to the conclusion that Piloting really would come into play before actual gunfire, as far as more "historical" dogfights are concerned. It seems to be just as important as infantry formations, flanking and such is on land.

I'd like to mention that the rules for tracers and tracking your shots would be very useful, but I'm afraid I don't recall where those rules are. Probably HT or Tactical Shooting.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Tallor

I'd like to mention that the rules for tracers and tracking your shots would be very useful, but I'm afraid I don't recall where those rules are. Probably HT or Tactical Shooting.

Walking the burst is on Tactical Shooting p16. Tracer effects are on HT 175. It seems like the mechanics are cumulative?

Walking the Burst probably should be more of a problem in air-to-air combat, because you can't usefully observe the bullets' impact when, if they miss the target, they're landing a very very long way off behind and below. Whether that should invalidate the mechanic altogether or just add in an unlisted penalty I'm not sure.

(Also, War Thunder! ...ATGMs coming soon.)

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

Here's a simplified version of dogfighting combat, which is how I'd play it:

Contest of Piloting vs Piloting to get a favorable maneuvering for attacking. The Hnd stat comes into play here.

Gunner (Machine Gun or Rockets) or Artillery (Guided Missile) for the actual attack. If using multi-second deals - like the system in Spaceships - use the Acc of the weapon to adjust the target number, along with Size, Speed, and Range modifiers, as at least part of the time will effectively be taking Aim maneuvers.

Pilot-Based Vehicular Dodge roll to avoid incoming attacks.

That help?

There are several dogfight systems: GURPS Spaceships (with some heavy modifications) and a "Dogfighting Action!" article for using the Action rules in dogfights. Both of them effectively use Phantasm's system above. Pilot is your ability to control the vehicle, gain an advantage over your opponent to set up an ideal shot, and avoid being attacked. Gunnery lets you judge distances, understand how bullets work, and make any last minute adjustments to make sure your shot hits.

Add in leadership and tactics for running a wing, and you've got a decent set of stats to build some strategies around and niches to differentiate your fighters with.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Tallor

It seems to be just as important as infantry formations, flanking and such is on land.

Those would be Tactics, and while useful, that skill isn't a roll to replace your to-hit roll with (say) Broadsword. They're also somewhat less integrated with the second-to-second results.

I'd use MoS in a Piloting Contest to give a TDM to the Gunner roll. High deflection shots aren't as easy as the rear-quarter ones.