Pyramid #3-33 Low Tech in Review

[ADAXL]

@DouglasCole:

Nice work. I gather that your revised bow system requires that bows must be worked out for every ST level. According to the new system, there are no more "generic" bows that have a minimum ST and do thrust+n imp damage.

This means we would need a complete set of statistics for bows from the lowest possible ST up to ST 20 or perhaps even higher. Is there an chance SJgames will provide such a set of bow stats? Fans could do this, but it would be better if the company provided a functioning, consistent set.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by ADAXL

@DouglasCole:

Nice work. I gather that your revised bow system requires that bows must be worked out for every ST level. According to the new system, there are no more "generic" bows that have a minimum ST and do thrust+n imp damage.

This means we would need a complete set of statistics for bows from the lowest possible ST up to ST 20 or perhaps even higher. Is there an chance SJgames will provide such a set of bow stats? Fans could do this, but it would be better if the company provided a functioning, consistent set.

Just to be clear, I don't work for SJG, speak for them, or do anything other than kibbitz a lot, occasionally bang out stuff on projectile weapons, and maybe do some playtesting and LPing. SJG would publish something if an author wrote a proposal and SJG liked it.

What you're asking for is basically along the lines of High Tech Weapons Tables: a list of bows, crossbows, and footbows, with a separate stat line for each ST value listed.

Tables are notoriously labor intensive to format. This potential article would essentially be one table after another, listing some or all of ST 8 to ST 20 (or the equivalent) for each type of bow.

Were I Steven, Phil, etc., I'd look at the sales figures. If everyone and their brother went out and bought three copies of Pyramid #3-33 just for bows and blowguns, and could be counted on to do the same for Low Tech: Obsessive Detail on Bows (working title), it might be worth it.

Otherwise . . . I built the spreadsheet just for y'all as a freebie. I started a thread in the GURPS forums for this purpose. If it fills up with bows, there's interest. If not, well . . .

I mean no offense in any of this. I'm just saying that given the amount of work that already went into what's basically an academic physics paper (in formatting difficulty, not accuracy) translated to GURPS for an optional ruleset, I suspect that the "go try out the spreadsheet" result is the expected answer. I'm happy to work with you and others in that thread, but the value for me in a big list of tables isn't there, and I suspect it would never pay back the layout costs for SJG.

[Steven Marsh]

Although I don't see that happening as an add-on or freebie for this issue (for a number of reasons, some of which Doug touched on), it's not beyond the realm of possibility that we might try to get a "sequel" article in a future Pyramid... especially if the numbers on this issue are strong enough that we consider doing a sequel or similar theme down the road.

[ADAXL]

Originally Posted by Steven Marsh

Although I don't see that happening as an add-on or freebie for this issue (for a number of reasons, some of which Doug touched on), it's not beyond the realm of possibility that we might try to get a "sequel" article in a future Pyramid... especially if the numbers on this issue are strong enough that we consider doing a sequel or similar theme down the road.

The problem is, as I stated above, that the new system no longer permits bow designs where one line on the weapon tables covers bows of a given type for all ST levels. The new system requires that the bows must be re-calculated for different ST levels.

Of course, the players can do this, but unless there is an effort by SJgames, this will probably be rather chaotic.

The alternative would be to deliver a new set of generic stats. This would, of course, involve some simplification, but it would make things easier.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by ADAXL

The problem is, as I stated above, that the new system no longer permits bow designs where one line on the weapon tables covers bows of a given type for all ST levels. The new system requires that the bows must be re-calculated for different ST levels.

The "new system" is entirely optional (extra so because it's in Pyramid).

Of course, the players can do this, but unless there is an effort by SJgames, this will probably be rather chaotic.

I suspect that groups that are this into realism are probably nonplussed by this (real life is also rather chaotic) groups that don't care are already happy using the stats in Low-Tech or Basic Set.

The alternative would be to deliver a new set of generic stats. This would, of course, involve some simplification, but it would make things easier.

People that like the rules in A Deadly Spring are probably adverse to simplification, I'd think. I suppose there is a middle that would like more realism but with less detail, but I doubt they are that many.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The "new system" is entirely optional (extra so because it's in Pyramid).

Originally Posted by In This Issue, by Steven Marsh in Pyramid #3-33

Whether you like your bows cinematic or realistic, this detailed optional system lets you design amazing weapons to your exact specifications. For those who don’t want to mess around with math, it also features 13 ready-to-use bows, from ancient to modern and everything in between. Fire away!

Steven has made this giga-abundantly clear (maybe even exa-abundantly), even in the intro text for the issue. This bow design system started out as a few equations that were SUPER simple that I'd worked out during the Low Tech playtest. In trying to fulfill my ad copy to Steven of "any bow, any material, any size" I ran into substantial mathematical difficulty. The article turned into something that was almost quadruple intended wordcount and an order of magnitude more complex than I'd started out thinking it would be.

This article and system is so optional it makes the bleeding rules in Basic Set or A Matter of Inches from Martial Arts look downright mandatory.

I suspect that groups that are this into realism are probably nonplussed by this (real life is also rather chaotic) groups that don't care are already happy using the stats in Low-Tech or Basic Set.
People that like the rules in A Deadly Spring are probably adverse to simplification, I'd think. I suppose there is a middle that would like more realism but with less detail, but I doubt they are that many.

To point to the review and the draft-level feedback I got from Ken (Tzeentch): the system would be unusable without the spreadsheet, but with it, it's not that bad. In fact, one can bang out a workable design in a few minutes, and there's a macro in the sheet that gives you a stat-line in the exact format from real GURPS publications.

In any case, if a zillion people go buy it, sequels could happen. Otherwise, it's all trivia. So . . .

[Jeffr0]

I'm late to the party, but here's my review anyway.

The short version: not really my genre, not what I was expecting... but the article that turned out to be most useful really surprised me. The synergy between the issues is good even if one or two issues is don't quite hit it-- so subscribing appears worth the moolah now.

[Jeffr0]

The first typo I've found in these Pyramid issues has finally turned up:

The spaceships issue is incorrectly referenced on page 30. (Spaceships is issue 30, not #27.)

Kudos to whoever edits this stuff. You stand head and shoulders above your counterparts at other companies.

[Tzeentch]

Glad you liked the Roman tech article :) It was a blast to write.

[seasong]

Regarding blowguns...

Originally Posted by Jeffr0

This is complete to the point of silliness...

Thank you :-). I'm also glad you liked the article, but this line is my favorite.