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Old 07-02-2021, 02:07 PM   #1
scc
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default [DF] Is This A Good High Elf Template?

So I want to know if this is a good template for a DF High Elf. In particular this would be accounting for half your points budget before advantages, so should I keep things as they are or swap them out for some skills and more Wizardly abilities?

High Elf
50 points
When people say Elf what they really mean is High Elf. High Elves are the quintessential, stereotypical even, Elves. High Elves are the most cosmopolitan of all Elves and the type most likely to live in cities or travel.
Attribute Modifiers: ST-1 [-10]; IQ+1 [20].
Advantages: Ambidexterity [5]; Appearance (Attractive) [4]; Language Talent [10]; Magery 0 [5]; Musical Ability 1 [5]; Photographic Memory [10]; Voice [10].
Perks: Elven Gear [1].
Disadvantages: Sense of Duty (Nature) [-15].
Features: Gold or silver hair.
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Old 07-02-2021, 02:36 PM   #2
martinl
 
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Default Re: [DF] Is This A Good High Elf Template?

I think this is 45 points. Can I math today? I'm pretty sure we have 45.

45 points is steep. Most DF players will look at it and see if they can get close to 45 CP of positive traits out of it.

...

So bards. You want all your high elf PCs to be bards, and all your bard PCs to be high elves?? This is good. You might also get some scholarly wizards, if that is a role your players like.

My personal requirements for new DF races is "arguably comparable or better than baseline human in more than one class, but not unambiguously better, and pulls in some unusual traits to mix it up a bit[2]." [1]

This hits the first and last, but it just too much bard bait for the second, so I wouldn't use it as is.

[1] Core DF races do not all meet this, it is my threshold for NEW ones.
[2] If the unusual is really fun, I might be flexible on the first two.
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Old 07-02-2021, 04:05 PM   #3
scc
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: [DF] Is This A Good High Elf Template?

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinl View Post
I think this is 45 points. Can I math today? I'm pretty sure we have 45.
Uh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinl View Post
45 points is steep. Most DF players will look at it and see if they can get close to 45 CP of positive traits out of it.
50 points was picked because that was what DF2 pushed as a 'level' and I want to have some fun with that. I also want all races, including human (But excluding half races like half-Elf and half-Human) to be the same point cost, to encourage picking races, especially for allies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by martinl View Post
...

So bards. You want all your high elf PCs to be bards, and all your bard PCs to be high elves?? This is good. You might also get some scholarly wizards, if that is a role your players like.

My personal requirements for new DF races is "arguably comparable or better than baseline human in more than one class, but not unambiguously better, and pulls in some unusual traits to mix it up a bit[2]." [1]

This hits the first and last, but it just too much bard bait for the second, so I wouldn't use it as is.

[1] Core DF races do not all meet this, it is my threshold for NEW ones.
[2] If the unusual is really fun, I might be flexible on the first two.
That's really not what I'm aiming for, more Wizard then Bard so maybe moving some points around, in particular a short free spend list including allies and magical skills.
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Old 07-02-2021, 04:33 PM   #4
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: [DF] Is This A Good High Elf Template?

So you took the high-elf in DF3 and added Ambidexterity, Language Talent, and Photographic Memory? These are all sort of niche traits and not many PCs are going to get full use out of all of them. Sort of against the spirit of Dungeon Fantasy. I would recommend against it—unless you are doing the same thing to every other race, including humans.
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Old 07-02-2021, 10:19 PM   #5
scc
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: [DF] Is This A Good High Elf Template?

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
So you took the high-elf in DF3 and added Ambidexterity, Language Talent, and Photographic Memory? These are all sort of niche traits and not many PCs are going to get full use out of all of them. Sort of against the spirit of Dungeon Fantasy. I would recommend against it—unless you are doing the same thing to every other race, including humans.
Pretty much and Language Talent is from the Basic Set elf template and kind of syncs with Voice for a more urban, worldly Elf; Photographic Memory is something put as an option on just about every Mage/Wizard template; and Ambidexterity was added thinking that it was a useful generic trait, didn't want to make them too class specific.

And yes every race will be getting this, including humans.
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Old 07-03-2021, 05:33 AM   #6
scc
 
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Default Re: [DF] Is This A Good High Elf Template?

Here's another attempt:
High Elf
50 points
When people say Elf what they really mean is High Elf. High Elves are the quintessential, stereotypical even, Elves. High Elves are the most cosmopolitan of all Elves and the type most likely to live in cities or travel.
Attribute Modifiers: ST-1 [-10]; IQ+1 [20].
Advantages: Appearance (Attractive) [4]; Magery 0 [5]; Voice [10].
Remaining 35 points to the General Traits list, which has the following addations:
Advantages: Familiar [15], Magical Bloddline [Varies],
Skills: Alchemy, Hazardous Materials (Magical), Hidden Lore (Demons, Elementals, Magic Items, Magical Writings, Secret Writings, Spirits, or Undead), Occultism, Thaumatology, and any Spell that has no more then a single prequesite.
Perks: Elven Gear [1].
Disadvantages: Sense of Duty (Nature) [-15].
Features: Gold or silver hair.

And here's the General Traits list:
Advantages:
ST +1 [10]; DX +1 [20], HT +1 [10], IQ +1 [20],
HP +1 to +3 [2/level], Per +1 to +2 [5/level], Basic Move +1 [5],
Appearance (Attractive, Handsome, or Very Handsome) [4, 12, or 16], Charisma 1-4 [5/level], Combat Reflexes [15], Danger Sense [15], Enhanced Block 1 [5], Enhanced Parry 1 (One Melee Weapon skill) [5], Fearlessness [2/level] or Unfazeable [15], Fit [5] or
Very Fit [15], Intuition [15], Language Talent [10], Languages (any) [2-6/language], Lifting ST 1-3 [3/level], Mind Shield [4/level], Night Vision 1-5 [1/level], Signature Gear [Varies],
Skills: Acrobatics, Architecture, Area Knowledge*, Armoury*, Connoisseur*, Dancing, Detect Lies, Engineer, Erotic Art, Falconry, Fast-Draw*, First Aid, Gambling, Holdout, Jeweler, Knot-Tying, Leadership, Lifting, Lip Reading, Packing, Pharmacy, Poisons, Prospecting, Running, Shadowing, Skiing, Strategy*, Swimming, Tactics, Teamster*, Thaumatology, Tracking, Urban Survival, Weather Sense, Writing
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Old 07-03-2021, 06:15 AM   #7
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: [DF] Is This A Good High Elf Template?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scc View Post
High Elf
50 points
r.
I'm working with this one instead of your second template because it's easier and I did want to note that I also get 45 pts. All of the Advantages add up to 60 and then you figure in a -15 pt Disad.

Then you get the question of is it "good" and I have to note that it contains only Traits that any PC could buy for exactly the same price. That means its only average if you want exactly this mix. Otherwise it's cp inefficient. You'd have to be willing to pay a cp penalty because you really wanted to be an Elf.

A Template should contain some unique element or otherwise it should be minimized and made as generically useful as possible. This is sort of why I don't like Templates.They tend to be restrictions on my ability to make the character I want rather than aids.
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Old 07-03-2021, 05:49 PM   #8
Žorkell
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Default Re: [DF] Is This A Good High Elf Template?

For the first attempt I like all the others get 45 points.

For the second one I get 80 plus whatever you want to charge for this
Quote:
Magical Bloddline [Varies],
Skills: Alchemy, Hazardous Materials (Magical), Hidden Lore (Demons, Elementals, Magic Items, Magical Writings, Secret Writings, Spirits, or Undead), Occultism, Thaumatology, and any Spell that has no more then a single prequesite.
You don't pick what you want to charge for a template and then shove whatever you want into that. Templates cost whatever the total points costs of traits in them is.
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Old 07-03-2021, 05:53 PM   #9
scc
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: [DF] Is This A Good High Elf Template?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Then you get the question of is it "good" and I have to note that it contains only Traits that any PC could buy for exactly the same price. That means its only average if you want exactly this mix. Otherwise it's cp inefficient. You'd have to be willing to pay a cp penalty because you really wanted to be an Elf.

A Template should contain some unique element or otherwise it should be minimized and made as generically useful as possible. This is sort of why I don't like Templates.They tend to be restrictions on my ability to make the character I want rather than aids.
This is a DF Template, so I don't think there really are any Advantages I can add to the template that aren't otherwise available, but they will have access to the special Elf rules in DF (three extra levels of Magery) and the Sense of Duty (Nature) doesn't count against the Disadvantage limit.

Beyond that I'll be making Racial Templates mandatory and they'll all have the same cost. A possibility is reducing racial cost down and making up the difference with a cultural template.
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Old 07-03-2021, 05:57 PM   #10
scc
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: [DF] Is This A Good High Elf Template?

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Originally Posted by Žorkell View Post
For the second one I get 80 plus whatever you want to charge for this
I get 75 points positive and 25 negative
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