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Old 06-15-2021, 04:39 PM   #1
Micah Davis
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Default Intolerance's Pricing System is Weird

So, I was thinking up some basic characters and I opened up Intolerance and the prices just seem... really wonky?

So, for example, Intolerance (Men) is -5 Disadvantage but Intolerance (Non-Natives) is -10 Disadvantage, even though it would be a strange country indeed where non-natives made up half or the more powerful share of the population. Or take religion, Intolerance (Christians) in modern America is -5 Points and Intolerance (Non-Christians) is -10 points but Christians make up a (much) larger share of the population.

I think the categories work well for class - Intolerance (Upper Class) applies to a smaller group, but they have all the power in society, and Intolerance (Lower Class) applies to a pretty broad subsection of society even if you have power over them. But it's much worse if you take, say, "Non-Lower Class," easily worth an extra five points if you're picking fight with the middle classes (or with both the bosses and the bottom).

So I kind of think it's a wonky trait, but I'm not quite sure how to fix it - It seems like you'd want to go in and work out some way of assessing both the power/size of the constituency against which you're prejudiced, but the point spread isn't really big enough to do that in any kind of detailed way.
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Old 06-15-2021, 05:40 PM   #2
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Intolerance's Pricing System is Weird

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Originally Posted by Micah Davis View Post
So, I was thinking up some basic characters and I opened up Intolerance and the prices just seem... really wonky?

So, for example, Intolerance (Men) is -5 Disadvantage but Intolerance (Non-Natives) is -10 Disadvantage, even though it would be a strange country indeed where non-natives made up half or the more powerful share of the population. Or take religion, Intolerance (Christians) in modern America is -5 Points and Intolerance (Non-Christians) is -10 points but Christians make up a (much) larger share of the population.
The assumption with Intolerance is that you don't have it against the dominant group in the setting but against the minorities. When you have a beef against people you encounter constantly but who hold the power, either you manage to keep it under wraps, or you end up with bad reputations and OPHs.
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Old 06-16-2021, 08:33 AM   #3
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Intolerance's Pricing System is Weird

Intolerance's pricing is meant to be based on how large the group you're intolerant of is. "Anyone different from me in [category]" is assumed to be markedly larger than "Anyone who is [specific sub-category]." There is perhaps a system-gaming issue if the player creates a character who is in a high-majority group and hates everyone outside of it when compared to a character who creates a character who hates said high-majority group. One solution would be to increase the value if the hated group is extremely common. Another solution is to treat intolerance of the majority group as being more socially acceptable than intolerance of minorities.
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Old 06-16-2021, 09:04 AM   #4
Kromm
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Default Re: Intolerance's Pricing System is Weird

Yes, the pricing assumes "All of set A except for a single element corresponding to people similar to me" is almost always going to be bigger than "A single element of set A." For instance, if A = {a1, a2, a3, a4} and I'm characterized by a4, then Intolerance of {a1, a2, a3} spans more space than Intolerance of {a1}. That's why it's -10 points rather than -5 to -1 points.

If you manage to engineer a situation where this produces weird results, well, fix it. This most often comes up when A = {a1, a2} and I'm characterized by a2; then both forms of Intolerance amount to Intolerance of {a1} and should both be worth -5 or -10 points (as the GM prefers). It can also come up when one element is huge relative to the others, and we're comparing two different people completely. For instance, if A = {a1, a2, a3, a4} and I'm characterized by a4, which is far larger than all the other elements put together, then my Intolerance of {a1, a2, a3} might be less relevant than someone else's Intolerance of just {a4}. In that case, the GM might have to flip the pricing.

But it's key to realize that those last couple of situations are extraordinary. Usually, you'll have enough elements of approximately equal importance to use the pricing in the rules.
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Old 06-16-2021, 09:57 AM   #5
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Intolerance's Pricing System is Weird

You know it's pretty reasonable incidentally for Intolerance to actually give you a reaction boost with people who share your Intolerance.
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Old 06-16-2021, 10:22 AM   #6
RyanW
 
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Default Re: Intolerance's Pricing System is Weird

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
You know it's pretty reasonable incidentally for Intolerance to actually give you a reaction boost with people who share your Intolerance.
I wouldn't say that being intolerant gives a reaction bonus, but that validating someone's views (genuinely or otherwise) could, especially when those views tend to be seen in a negative light by society at large.

Of course, convincing someone you hold views you do not actually hold calls for Acting rolls.
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Old 06-16-2021, 12:05 PM   #7
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Intolerance's Pricing System is Weird

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I wouldn't say that being intolerant gives a reaction bonus, but that validating someone's views (genuinely or otherwise) could, especially when those views tend to be seen in a negative light by society at large.

Of course, convincing someone you hold views you do not actually hold calls for Acting rolls.
Seems more like it would just be a circumstantial bonus to an influence skill, honestly. A general reaction bonus would call for having a reputation for holding such views - a positive Reputation amongst those who share them (and have actually heard of you holding such views, and believe what they've heard), and a corresponding negative Reputation amongst those who find them abhorrent (and have actually heard of you holding such views, and believe what they've heard). The reputation need not be true, of course - perhaps you spread such rumors on purpose to get support from those who share such views (and feel this is worth losing any support you may have received from those who find them abhorrent), or perhaps it's part of someone else's attack on you.
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Old 06-16-2021, 03:13 PM   #8
Micah Davis
 
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Default Re: Intolerance's Pricing System is Weird

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
You know it's pretty reasonable incidentally for Intolerance to actually give you a reaction boost with people who share your Intolerance.
I don’t know - Intolerance is pretty nasty. The average result of contact is, basically, “Immediately begin plotting hate crimes.” Even in Dixie-1 Confederacy, that would be decently debilitating. Now, sometimes that means Klansmen joining a group, but unless you’re actively investing in such contacts even other Intolerant characters will find you difficult to work with.
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Old 06-17-2021, 06:09 AM   #9
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Intolerance's Pricing System is Weird

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I don’t know - Intolerance is pretty nasty. The average result of contact is, basically, “Immediately begin plotting hate crimes.”
Maybe in a farcical story full of moustache-twirling and puppy-kicking. More realistically, the average result of contact is going to be sharing jokes (and memes in more modern settings) that have the despised group as the butt (or otherwise cast them in a disparaging light), alongside an airing of perceived grievances against them. You may well have someone suggest it would be a good thing for something negative to happen to the group, but to a similar extent as an average person might wish ill on a hated politician - there's no plan (or intent) to actually do it. Over time, however, if a group of like-minded bigots regularly get together, eventually they may well start plotting such. Many such groups won't actually intend to execute their plan (it's basically just an unhealthy fantasy), but unfortunately too many others will, and we've all seen or heard of some of the results.

Unless you're referring to something specific in the GURPS rules for Intolerance (GURPS Disadvantages are often fairly extreme cases), but I don't recall reading anything like that in it.
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Old 06-17-2021, 07:33 AM   #10
Micah Davis
 
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Default Re: Intolerance's Pricing System is Weird

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Unless you're referring to something specific in the GURPS rules for Intolerance (GURPS Disadvantages are often fairly extreme cases), but I don't recall reading anything like that in it.
I am. It’s really debilitating. This is a twelve or less before any external modifiers reaction, about 3/4 of the time.
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On any worse reaction, you attack or refuse to associate with the victim.
Intolerance as a disadvantage is a Klansmen, not George Wallace. It’s people who have a deeply felt hatred of the targeted outgroup. And it’s true that such people frequently form affiliation groups, but they’re usually formed in reaction to progress or war - Under ordinary circumstances they don’t.
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