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Old 06-10-2021, 08:16 PM   #11
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: Listed as 3E?

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Originally Posted by kate_unknown View Post
I prefer 4e, so if conversion from 1e/2e is as easy as 3e that would be amazing and it sounds like it from what everyone is saying!
Ditto.

I was a serious GURPS 3e loyalist, but I gradually came to appreciate GURPS 4e's benefits.

Keep in mind that 90% of any GURPS supplement prior to GURPS 4e will be compatible with 4e with no conversion needed. About 5-9% will require slight tweaks (e.g., most pre-4e character sheets and templates). There's about 1% which requires serious thought and modification to bring it up to GURPS 4e standards (e.g., anything to do with the Jinx "disadvantage")
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Old 06-12-2021, 04:13 PM   #12
kate_unknown
 
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Default Re: Listed as 3E?

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Ditto.

I was a serious GURPS 3e loyalist, but I gradually came to appreciate GURPS 4e's benefits.

Keep in mind that 90% of any GURPS supplement prior to GURPS 4e will be compatible with 4e with no conversion needed. About 5-9% will require slight tweaks (e.g., most pre-4e character sheets and templates). There's about 1% which requires serious thought and modification to bring it up to GURPS 4e standards (e.g., anything to do with the Jinx "disadvantage")
Well at the very least they need points conversions. The only rule I know of from 3e that is completely gone in 4e is passive defense, not sure what the fix for that would be.

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In the meantime, here's a list of differences between 2e and 3e, originally prepared to create that Update document.
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Old 06-12-2021, 08:59 PM   #13
Pursuivant
 
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Default Re: Listed as 3E?

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Originally Posted by kate_unknown View Post
Well at the very least they need points conversions. The only rule I know of from 3e that is completely gone in 4e is passive defense, not sure what the fix for that would be.
Passive defense was a good general idea which broke down in specific instances.

The idea was that due to hardness of armor and/or angle at which an attack hit there was a chance that an attack would "slide" or "bounce" off the armor rather than digging into the material and penetrating. On a low tech level, this was the difference between a helmet with smooth, sloping surfaces (e.g., a 14th century Bascinet helm) vs. one with flat angular surfaces (e.g. a flat-topped Great Helm). On a high tech level it's the difference between an armor piercing shell which hits hardened tank armor sloped at 60 degrees vs. one which hits the same thickness of armor at a perfectly right angle.

The problem was that for things like force fields and low tech armor it gave really bad results.

GURPS 4e handles the real life variations in Passive Defense as good or bad damage rolls. A critical hit or just a higher than normal damage roll means a hit which just happens to hit a weak spot in armor or just happens to hit at optimal angle for penetration.

The legitimate "passive defense" benefits of shields are covered by the Defense Bonus (DB) stat.

Other aspects of Passive Defense could be treated as a Supernatural advantage, based on the GURPS 3e Passive Defense advantage (at 25 points/level, up to 6 levels, found in GURPS 3e Compendium I or Supers) with each level of PD giving a 3+n chance on 3d that a given attack "bounces off" or misses regardless of the amount of damage it would normally inflict. That is, for 150 points (6 levels of PD) any attack has a 40% chance (<=9 on 3d) of somehow missing or being deflected.

For sanity, the GM could put limits on just how much damage Passive Defense can deflect. For example, it might not deflect damage in excess of DR x 10 or x100 of associated armor.

Other changes from GURPS 1e and 2e are mostly additions rather than changes to existing rules. I stand my my statement that 90% of GURPS 1-3e material is "fluff" which doesn't require any changes to be adapted to GURPS 4e, the other 9% is easily adaptable, and only 1% is stuff which requires serious understanding of GURPSology.
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Old 06-13-2021, 09:55 AM   #14
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Listed as 3E?

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Originally Posted by kate_unknown View Post
The only rule I know of from 3e that is completely gone in 4e is passive defense, not sure what the fix for that would be.
!
Ignore 3e PD when converting defenses to 4e. PD was a concept with a few cases where it could be visualized that failed in general application.

The important part about 3e to 4e defenses is that 25mm of RHA is DR 70 in both cases.
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Old 06-13-2021, 01:11 PM   #15
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Default Re: Listed as 3E?

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Originally Posted by kate_unknown View Post
Well at the very least they need points conversions. The only rule I know of from 3e that is completely gone in 4e is passive defense, not sure what the fix for that would be.
That is partially addressed by the +3 that is added to active defenses in 4e

*Dodge was Basic Speed while in 4 it is Basic Speed + 3
*Parry was weapon skill/2 while in 4e it is weapon skill/2 weapon skill/2 + 3
*Block was half Shield or Cloak skill whil in 4 it is half Shield or Cloak skill + 3
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Old 06-13-2021, 09:36 PM   #16
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Default Re: Listed as 3E?

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Passive defense was a good general idea which broke down in specific instances.

The idea was that due to hardness of armor and/or angle at which an attack hit there was a chance that an attack would "slide" or "bounce" off the armor rather than digging into the material and penetrating. On a low tech level, this was the difference between a helmet with smooth, sloping surfaces (e.g., a 14th century Bascinet helm) vs. one with flat angular surfaces (e.g. a flat-topped Great Helm). On a high tech level it's the difference between an armor piercing shell which hits hardened tank armor sloped at 60 degrees vs. one which hits the same thickness of armor at a perfectly right angle.
I use a house rule (from TBone) where a hit by zero or one is a glancing blow, and deal half damage and doubles DR. A simple fix is that some armors (those smooth, sloped pieces) might instead triple or quadruple DR. I seem to recall a 3e rule where massive damage reduced PD, which multiplying DR handles nicely. Even quadrupled, DR 3 isn't going to do much against a tank round.
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Old 06-14-2021, 10:39 PM   #17
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Default Re: Listed as 3E?

Some interesting takes on passive defense guys, thanks!

I got my unrevised 3e book today (still waiting on 1e and the coversion pages), but I noticed something interesting. No perception or willpower! Interesting that those were added so late.

I think I understand why everyone says conversion is easy. If you just do it straight, it cuts out the things that were just plain not there.
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Old 06-15-2021, 05:12 AM   #18
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Default Re: Listed as 3E?

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Some interesting takes on passive defense guys, thanks!

I got my unrevised 3e book today (still waiting on 1e and the coversion pages), but I noticed something interesting. No perception or willpower! Interesting that those were added so late.

I think I understand why everyone says conversion is easy. If you just do it straight, it cuts out the things that were just plain not there.
Actually Classic books didn't generally repeat what was in the Basic Set.

Willpower (Will Rolls) existed in Classic: "Normally, Will is equal to IQ, so this is just an IQ roll. However, if the character has the advantage of Strong Will (p. 23) or the disadvantage of Weak Will (p. 37), the appropriate number of levels add to or subtract from IQ. For instance, a person with IQ of 14, and 2 levels of Weak Will, has a Will of 12." (Classic Basic Set pg 93)

As for Perception that was part of IQ: "INTELLIGENCE (IQ), a measure of brainpower, alertness, adaptability and general background experience." (sic Classic Basic Set pg 13) THere just wasn't an easy way to modify it out of Acute (sense) and other similar advantages.

"Perception represents your general alertness." (Basic set pg 16)

Conversion of most Classic material easy because most of it is 3.x and there really weren't that many changes in 4e from that.

However, sometimes GURPS Update is not as helpful as it could be because 4e has expanded since it was written.

Knacks is case in point. GURPS update says "To build a knack, find an advantage that mimics the required effect and take it with the Mana Sensitive (-10%) limitation."

But under current 4e rules they can more easily be mimicked by

Magery 2 (-70%: One-Spell Magery, -80%; No Spell Prerequisites, +30%; No Magic Item Sensitivity, -20%) [8] and (adjusting One-Spell Magery accordingly +5% for each spell above one) buy up each spell to 15 using IQ 10. Each (H) spell is [18] and each VH spell is [22]

So 3 (H) Knacks would be Magery 2 (-60%: One-Spell Magery, -80%; No Spell Prerequisites, +30%; No Magic Item Sensitivity, -20%; 3 spells, +10%) [10] + 3 x [18] or [64].

Heck, I don't even have to know what those three spell knacks even are while by Update I would.
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Old 06-16-2021, 05:19 PM   #19
kate_unknown
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Default Re: Listed as 3E?

Okay so I got the 2e to 3e update booklet and everyone was right, there isn't much that changed.

There are no changes to basic attributes and appearance and only some minor changes to wealth on the first page.

Next 11 pages of updates to advantages, disadvantages and skills, mostly point differences or clarifications.

After that 1 page on new encumbrance rules and character development rules.

There are more rules changes to things like success rolls, injuries and combat after that. A lot actually.

The main reason the book is 80 pages is because they completely added the chapters on vehicle/mounted combat, magic and psionics from 3e since those weren't present in the main set of 2e.

So in short, transferring characters between 2e and 3e is pretty simple, but be careful of any non-character based rules in 2e or prior as they are likely to be slightly off.

I got my 1e box set as well, so I want to go through all the versions and see how the game developed over time. from Man to Man all the way to 4e.

The 2e to 3e update is going to have to act as my guide for 2e though cause it seems very hard to find 2e at a good price online. I was probably lucky getting an 1e box set so cheap.

Last edited by kate_unknown; 06-16-2021 at 05:20 PM. Reason: added a word in last line
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