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Old 12-24-2020, 02:23 AM   #71
Otaku
 
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Default Re: Is Regeneration a Disadvantage?

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Getting your healing factor burned out might be a case of paying character points to survive something (maybe CP-fueled Unkillable?) and the GM lets you take those CP out of your existing advantage if you have no unspent CP to pay with?
Quite plausible. It could also be some weird player/GM deal because they both wanted a lower-CP total campaign, and but Wolverine's player just didn't want to part with him. I'm sure there are several possibilities, especially when I consider how many "weird" things have happened both with the real-life story behind Marvel Comics and and the real-life happenings of various people's gaming groups. ;)

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I think an easier take on "he heals faster because the adamantium was hurting him" might just be "he heals faster because the adamantium was TIRING him".
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If wolverine had to use FP for Extra Effort a lot more often because of his built-in encumbrance, then if his Regeneration was fueled by FP (which sounds like a realistic take on regeneration) he would have less FP available to fuel it when he's using EE to lug himself around.
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My approach falls apart when you consider the many times where he's just lying immobile while healing though because even if you were wearing 200lbs of platemail you don't spend extra FP to lie prone in that platemail, just to walk around in it.
Whoa! Hold up! Unless they've changed it, you're ignoring canon with your hypothesis. Sadly, I no longer have the issue to get a direct reference, but working from memory and summaries, in Wolverine Vol. 2 #164, Wolverine is sent to prison, specifically The Cage (a predecessor of The Raft) for reasons we won't worry about. What does matter is this is after his adamantium skeleton had been restored, his healing factor was cranked up... but The Cage had the technology to suppress super powers (including mutant powers).

Anyway, this is where we are informed Wolverine has to receive shots to compensate for "adamantium poisoning". No, it wasn't invented just for Logan (2017). Given that Wolverine's adamantium was restored by Apocalypse, somewhat infamous for "improving" the powers of those serving him, Wolverine's healing factor may have been amplified to the point where even with adamantium present, it was now Regeneration (Very Fast).

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I think traditionally it was always meant to be the bonding process ("hey we're just going to poke 99 tubes in through holes in your body, don't bleed to death!") which was so deadly and what the HF was for.
Nope. As stated, adamantium isn't exactly healthy to have in your body. Though Adamantium Beta, if that hasn't been retconned away, isn't as bad as having True Adamantium. The bonding process was developed by Kenji Oyama a.k.a. Lord Dark Wind, but it was stolen from him. The short version is that Lord Dark Wind's process includes an additional treatment that means someone without a healing factor (or similar super power) can survive the process. One example of this is Bullseye.

Though I am sure that the initial process is still incredibly traumatic... and the only reason I suspect the Weapon X program would be concerned with keeping down the failure rate is because they were using True Adamantium (like I said, it reacts with Wolverine's biology to become Adamantium Beta). True Adamantium is crazy expensive, and virtually impossible to recast after it sets.

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Maybe the best way to find out is actually look at the failed projects (1-9) where people died and understand HOW they died?
Can you be more specific?

The Weapon Plus program has had a lot more than one subject per program, and I don't think most involved the adamantium bonding process.
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Old 12-24-2020, 04:08 AM   #72
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Default Re: Is Regeneration a Disadvantage?

I think we might be getting into the weeds with details about Wolverine's comic history. The point is that he's a cyborg whose regen doesn't spit out his cybernetics, due to whatever justifications specific to his team of writers over the years, so it's not a given that someone's PC would have an issue of their Regen disallowing cybernetics. And that could be for whatever range of justifications that that PC and GM can agree on. Wolverine's only one example, and there are many others, the T-1000 frex.
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Old 12-24-2020, 10:54 AM   #73
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Default Re: Is Regeneration a Disadvantage?

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I think we might be getting into the weeds with details about Wolverine's comic history. The point is that he's a cyborg whose regen doesn't spit out his cybernetics, due to whatever justifications specific to his team of writers over the years, so it's not a given that someone's PC would have an issue of their Regen disallowing cybernetics. And that could be for whatever range of justifications that that PC and GM can agree on. Wolverine's only one example, and there are many others, the T-1000 frex.
Apologies. If any further discussion about the details is needed and not obviously related to the core discussion, anyone can just PM me. Getting back to the main topic, I'm still not clear where Regeneration does and doesn't differ from natural healing. I'll explain what I think I understand, however.

Let me be clear; Regeneration is an Exotic trait in humans. Some real-world, non-human life might have Regeneration (Slow), I think, but I'm not exactly a biologist either. ;)

Reading about Regeneration in Basic, it is... ambiguous. I think it happens in addition to whatever natural healing your character is due e.g. a human with Regeneration (Slow) recovers one HP every 12 hours, no roll required. If they are taking it easy, they would also get their daily healing check for natural recovery, and at +5 because all forms of Regeneration include the +5 bonus from Rapid Healing.

Another area of confusion is whether or not the minimum 10 HT requirement from Rapid Healing is also present. It is also worth mentioning that Unhealing and Slow Healing are incompatible with Regeneration but Healing appears to be okay. Unless I misunderstood and it only means someone else can use their Healing advantage on the Unhealing/Slow Healing character, but if that character has the Healing Advantage, they couldn't use it to self-heal.

Does this sound correct? I mean, the bits where I state how I think it works; though I suppose some of the areas where I said I didn't know or wasn't sure may also be correct if there are no official answers. XP
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Old 12-24-2020, 12:36 PM   #74
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Default Re: Is Regeneration a Disadvantage?

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It is also worth mentioning that Unhealing and Slow Healing are incompatible with Regeneration but Healing appears to be okay. Unless I misunderstood and it only means someone else can use their Healing advantage on the Unhealing/Slow Healing character, but if that character has the Healing Advantage, they couldn't use it to self-heal.
This seems rather tangential, but remember that Healing cannot be used to self-heal at all without the Affects Self enhancement from Powers.
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Old 12-24-2020, 02:47 PM   #75
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Default Re: Is Regeneration a Disadvantage?

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This seems rather tangential, but remember that Healing cannot be used to self-heal at all without the Affects Self enhancement from Powers.
Actually, given what I just said, it is pretty important. I forgot Healing could not be used on yourself with its base build. This means there is one less thing to distinguish the "unnatural" healing from Healing and the "unnatural" healing from Regeneration.
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Old 12-26-2020, 11:05 AM   #76
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Default Re: Is Regeneration a Disadvantage?

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almost no GURPS rules anywhere treat 'expelling foreign materials' as a concern at all.
MA232 has special damage for removing barbed arrows from wounds.

There's also the effect of Swing-Impale weapons.

It doesn't sound like something to be taken for granted. At bare minimum the weight of projectiles in your body would add up over time as encumbrance and set off metal detectors, even ignoring realistic concerns like causing infection, poisoning, extra injury from movement over time.

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And the few that do seldom actually provide a motivation!

Like it or not GURPS is not written around brutal medical simulation.

Consequently, it's not really reasonable to add on brutal medical simulation
The blood loss rules are optional rules, so I see your point there.

But if you're ignoring the effects of foreign matter on the body then whether or not the power removes them would not be important.

That Psionc Powers has a perk for teleporting and leaving bullets behind says to me that you probably don't take it for granted though.

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and then ignore the reason that existing rules don't speak to its issues. Regeneration doesn't say how it interacts with foreign matter embedded in the body because as far as the game mechanics are concerned that's not a thing.
Encumbrance IS a basic rule. Anything carried on or in your body with weight can add up to slow you down.

If you happen to be bringing lunch to Magneto, as we know from X2, it's a bad thing to even have even a granule of certain foreign elements inside you.

As long as something doesn't overpenetrate, and so long as DR doesn't stop it, we can probably assume that a projectile has lodged itself in the body.

Melee weapons would be different since they're assumed to be pulled free unless it's swing-impale.

Thrust-Impale apparently has a "leave it in" mandate as of MA106 where foes don't need to win a Quick Contest of Strength to get closer: instead they need to try and get wounded enough to exceed the DR on their backs which gets the weapon stuck.

Technical Grappling also had rules on leaving impaling weapons in and using control points from the attack, kinda similar to biting.

Cutting's difference: no control points from the attack, but you CAN use them to grapple and get free damage from the control points.

B405's swing-impale rules to get weapon free are I think what thrust-impale would use in that situation.

Would be interesting to always use some kind of ST thing for getting impaling weapons free: for example if you did otherwise did "maximum possible injury" why would it matter whether that's from your thrust or your target's thrust? Should probably be same wound depth.
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Old 12-26-2020, 11:37 AM   #77
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Default Re: Is Regeneration a Disadvantage?

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At bare minimum the weight of projectiles in your body would add up over time as encumbrance and set off metal detectors, h.
We discussed this already but modern bullets remaining in wounds they make is very rare. Even 9mm hollow points will make through and through wounds exiting the torso.

They also don't weigh very much. It takes 111 63 grain 5.56mm Nato bullets to add up to 1 lb.

No, it is very much something to be ignored.
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Old 12-26-2020, 05:05 PM   #78
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Default Re: Is Regeneration a Disadvantage?

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modern bullets remaining in wounds they make is very rare. Even 9mm hollow points will make through and through wounds exiting the torso.
It could depend on armor: if you wore armor which slowed down the bullet it might not be able to make it all the way through you after dealing with that DR.

I think you determine that w/ the rules on Overpenetration, which appears to require that basic damage exceed a person's HP.

It's a pretty high requirement, to accounts for how grazes don't have much tissue to travel through, one idea might be if using the "grazes" rules in pyramid (I think MoS 1 hits doing half damage?) maybe in addition to suffering half the injury you should also have half the cover DR?
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Old 12-26-2020, 08:42 PM   #79
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Default Re: Is Regeneration a Disadvantage?

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I think you determine that w/ the rules on Overpenetration, which appears to require that basic damage exceed a person's HP.
I was actually using Real World penteration data Gurps underestimates the ability of RW pistol rounds to completely penetrate the torso.
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Old 12-28-2020, 02:32 PM   #80
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Default Re: Is Regeneration a Disadvantage?

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I was actually using Real World penteration data Gurps underestimates the ability of RW pistol rounds to completely penetrate the torso.
HP damage might be a good approximation if you're talking about cover DR provided by most protected line of entry/exit through the body?

Not sure what that would be but my best guess would be if a bullet hit the Sternum, penetrated that and then hit the thoracic spine and penetrated that too?

Alternatively if it came in on an angle and hit these 4 things:
1) front of rib
2) spine
3) back of rib
4) scapula
Any time you're not hitting the bones which protect the upper torso (ribs and scapula) is perhaps a "vitals" hit, so maybe in cases where you hit vitals (injury increases 50% from impaling) there should be a 50% decrease in cover DR?

For "no vitals" characters you could still allow -3 hits to "avoid the bones" for getting past their cover DR, it just wouldn't increase injury (no special organs behind the bones).

Another interesting idea for cover DR: what if we applied the "chinks" rule on B400?

Normally for body armor you can incur a -8 penalty in exchange for halving the DR against your attack (essentially an Armor Divisor), so we could allow that for Overpenetration too, as if the cover was armor worn by the secondary target behind them.

To use the example of Ira Gray on B408, you would reduce the cover DR of gray (12 HP) and side A (DR 8) and side B (DR8) from the prior total of 28 to 14.

So instead of the AP round halving 28 to 14, it halves 14 to 7, and inflicts 20-7=13 damage to the VIP, who takes half that as injury due to small piercing: either 6 or 7 HP, I forget which direction you round fractions.

This couldn't be easily exploited since -8 is hard to eat, and it would perhaps be kinda hard to aim in such a way that you minimize cover DR of a torso since that would mean you can so precisely pick your angle that you miss all the hard bones and only have to pass through soft tissue.

To allow for a random chance of hitting a chink (since it doesn't appear to exist, like with -9 eyes) I can think of one precedent for this...

It is -8 to hit the jugular vein or carotid artery (MA137) and there's a 1 in 6 chance of doing this randomly if you roll neck on the random hit location table which is 17-18 (1.85% chance) for a neck.

So the odds of accidental chink-hits could be ~0.30 percent which is less than the 0.46 odds of getting an 18

If we want to make this a sub-table of the torso roll (9 or 10 is 11.57 plus 12.50 for 24.07%) you divide 0.003 by 0.24 to get 0.0125 as the intended odds

you could do it where if you roll a 6, (odds after 24 for torso is 0.040116) to have it happen 1/3 of the time (1-2 or 5-6) as 0.013372 comes close enough to the intended odds.
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