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Old 12-03-2020, 10:59 AM   #11
DouglasCole
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Default Re: GURPS Technical Grappling Max Control Points

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Originally Posted by RedMattis View Post
Er, I'm confused. Would this effect the Max Control Points?
Yeah. Trained ST is "your effective ST plus your training bonus." As your Grip ST goes up when you use your legs, arms, or other grapply appendages, your Trained ST should go up as well.

i mean, I still feel that it's way too much math in play as you add and take away arms and legs and such...but if you're willing to keep track of the details, that's how I'd do it to get sensible results.

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Either way, I bought the Fantastic Dungeon Grappling pdf, and I'm having a read right now. I wasn't aware of its existence before.
It was an Add-On made available at the tail end of the Citadel at Nordvorn Kickstarter.
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Old 12-04-2020, 10:30 AM   #12
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Default Re: GURPS Technical Grappling Max Control Points

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
No. That's not how it works. Max CP is MAX CP, not 'per grapple.' It's the maximum amount of control a person with that strength and training can apply under any circumstances.
Reading TG6 in this context, how would it work if you did sort of a "4 on 4" limbs situation (left hand grapples left hand, right hand grapples right hand, left leg grapples right leg, right leg grapples right leg) ?

You would have 0.5xST RH>RH, another 0.5x for LH>LH which would total 1.0xST

Would that mean for the leg-on-leg additions of 0.6xST that you just could not do those grapples, or they would be limited to 0CP grapples because any CP added on the legs would exceed the total?

I guess I just informally assumed "amount of CP a grappler is maintaining" meant "grappling implement"...

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Trained ST is "your effective ST plus your training bonus."
As your Grip ST goes up when you use your legs, arms, or other grapply appendages, your Trained ST should go up as well.
ah NM should've read this 2nd reply first...

I guess I'm wondering if you can maintain 0.5xST hands-free (pass limb) why that can't increase max CP like adding a 2nd hand would?

It kinda seems like you could still track it "per grappled location"

IE if you're grappling with 1 arm and 1 leg (0.5+0.6=1.1) it's still prob like max 0.5 on the arm's target and 0.6 on the leg's target, when calculating penalties that apply based on 100% of the CP instead of 50% (referred control) ?

that'd be like 0.5+0.3=0.8 for arm and 0.6+0.25=0.85 calculating max CP (as multiple of trained ST) when including referred control I guess?

Last edited by Plane; 12-04-2020 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 12-04-2020, 10:38 AM   #13
DouglasCole
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Default Re: GURPS Technical Grappling Max Control Points

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Reading TG6 in this context, how would it work if you did sort of a "4 on 4" limbs situation (left hand grapples left hand, right hand grapples right hand, left leg grapples right leg, right leg grapples right leg) ?

You would have 0.5xST RH>RH, another 0.5x for LH>LH which would total 1.0xST

Would that mean for the leg-on-leg additions of 0.6xST that you just could not do those grapples, or they would be limited to 0CP grapples because any CP added on the legs would exceed the total?
I'm not quite sure what you're doing here. For using both arms and both legs, just consult the table in the back. You ST is boosted to 1.5xST, then add training bonus. That sets your control maximum.

Anything more complicated than this already-too-complicated math is going to be some combination of unwise, unneeded, unhealthy, immoral, or fattening.

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I guess I just informally assumed "amount of CP a grappler is maintaining" meant "grappling implement"...
No, it's meant to be "no matter how skilled you are, there's only so much you can do to another bloke." It's a nod to skill, size, and strength, and at some point, you just run out of leverage.

Even increasing the Control Maximum is my own interpretation, but to me it's OK. If you have (say) ST 12, +2 training bonus, then your 1-arm control max would be a pretty-respectable 8, two arms would be 14, and both arms and both legs would be 20. But using both arms and legs means you are on the ground, which has its own drawbacks.

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and I guess also informally assumed that "trained ST" meant "as possible for that implement" (ie the max CP for 2 hands is 1.0x trained ST, the max CP for 1 hand is 0.5x trained ST) as otherwise it would sound like 2 hands can't actually maintain better max control than 1 hand would, given enough prep time...

Would that mean the biggest advance with using 2 hands to grapple is just that you can add CP faster, but not a higher total?
See above using the TG rules. You can - and might possibly should - adjust Control Max based on what limbs are in use...but that's EVEN MORE turn to turn bookkeeping in a system that indulges in too much of that already.
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Old 12-04-2020, 11:17 AM   #14
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Default Re: GURPS Technical Grappling Max Control Points

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I'm not quite sure what you're doing here. For using both arms and both legs, just consult the table in the back. You ST is boosted to 1.5xST, then add training bonus. That sets your control maximum.
I figure you do that when you're using all four limbs to grapple a single Hit Location as a single attack.

I'm talking about using four separate attacks of each limb grappling a different hit location (the mirror location on opponent).

Which I guess would require facing the same direction to avoid a tangled mess, otherwise if facing opposite directions (face to face, or back to back) you'd need to flip the sides (left hand grapples right hand, right hand grapples left hand, etc)

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Anything more complicated than this already-too-complicated math is going to be some combination of unwise, unneeded, unhealthy, immoral, or fattening.
Tracking CP (and what implement is maintaining that CP) on a location-by-location basis doesn't sound any worse than keeping track of injury on a per-limb basis which is already an optional rule.

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
See above using the TG rules. You can - and might possibly should - adjust Control Max based on what limbs are in use...but that's EVEN MORE turn to turn bookkeeping in a system that indulges in too much of that already.
I guess one of the complications is incorporating the idea of diminishing returns for arm/leg cooperation as TG47 shows...

It seems like nothing is lost when you combine hands (0.5+0.5 = 1.0) or legs (0.6+0.6=1.2) so it's not about the number of limbs, as 1arm+1leg is 0.7 instead of 1.1

I guess that's something to do with TG7's "combine in pairs" instruction.

The thing about adding BL and then reverse-engineering the BL to find the ST needed for it is that's prob going to need a lot of pre-calculating for the many possible calculations of hand numbers for creatures like the "Hundred Handed" of greek legend (Hecatonchieres) where would be more convenient if we could just multiply hands used by 0.5 since then you don't need to precalc anything.

I realize that would make them super-powerful but is that a bad thing?

Also makes a very small jump from 2>3 hands then a larger jump from 3>4 hands.

I guess the intent is that you don't want a 4-armed ST 5 being to overpower a 2-armed ST 10 being, but maybe that could be approached some other way like the ST 10 guy having more 'core strength' with some kind of torso ST that could supplement limb ST when you have a weight advantage?

This could also make it possible for 1 arm to pin 1 arm, which seems like a realistic scenario so long as there is a weight advantage established via a superior overtop position

That's already possible with doubling max CP though, because then 0.5xST could establish a max of ST CP, which could induce a penalty to ST equal to 0.5xST, which is enough to reduce the 0.5xST of an equal-ST foe to 0 (effective pin)

This is just the idea of toying with another approach to getting the +100% max CP from that, instead of limbs having twice the potential to pin inherently, instead you get that "twice the potential" through some other less-flexible means, like being able to use gravity/torso advantageously.
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