Help with explaining why Superman can't get 300 DR for 5 points?

[Ragabash Moon]

So I have a new player who... Seems to have a fundamental problem with the game itself, and I've tried to explain it to him, but he keeps saying it makes no sense.

The setting is a futuristic one, with exotic powers. So, he wants his character to be able to absorb blaster rifles and force sword, but this is expensive. Damage Resistance cost should be scaled to the campaign he thinks.

I... tried using the above example. If Superman were to be dropped in the stone age, he'd only ever need maybe DR 10 or even 5. But you put him today or in the future, then yes he's going to need DR 300. Except, this player thinks that necessary to the campaign setting for his concept DR 300 should have the same cost as the DR 5 and any other way does not make sense to him.

Like, what do I say? There is nothing keeping him from taking high DR, but it seems he doesn't think it should cost him that much?

"Then I am going to have to bow out. It doesn't make sense and I'm not going to play a game where there is only one specific way to do something."

He's even got some of the other players questioning it now, one said basically what if it's like Dune? Advanced weapons exist, but most people still use regular swords?

Like... what? Would they be giving me this much trouble in a James Bond setting? Oh, no why do I have to buy full riot armor? It's so unfair that I can be shot in the head and killed instantly. I should be able to wear just a nice suit like Bond.

I am too old. I've literally been playing GURPS since 1987 and... I just am getting more and more a "Get off my lawn you darn kids!" attitude about gaming.

[Refplace]

Well I have a couple of different answers here.
First is along the lines of ..
"Everyone is not Superman, it costs extra to do stuff others cannot."

Second though is to look at reducing the price of some advantages.
If the power you purchase is the equivalent of gear everyone can easily purchase it could be an Accessory perk.
If tis an enhancement to gear you start with the base gear and add to it (See GURPS Supers).
Those are both RAW, here is something I like but is not RAW.
If its something that does not qualify as an Accessory (weapon, military or restricted gear for example) you can buy up to the equivalent at alternative ability pricing (1/5) and then stack it with normal cost for more powerful variants.
Example buy DR that matches armor at 1/5 price then add additional DR at normal price.

[Ragabash Moon]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Well I have a couple of different answers here.
First is along the lines of ..
"Everyone is not Superman, it costs extra to do stuff others cannot."

Second though is to look at reducing the price of some advantages.
If the power you purchase is the equivalent of gear everyone can easily purchase it could be an Accessory perk.
If tis an enhancement to gear you start with the base gear and add to it (See GURPS Supers).
Those are both RAW, here is something I like but is not RAW.
If its something that does not qualify as an Accessory (weapon, military or restricted gear for example) you can buy up to the equivalent at alternative ability pricing (1/5) and then stack it with normal cost for more powerful variants.
Example buy DR that matches armor at 1/5 price then add additional DR at normal price.

Well, yes but he seems to think that he should be able to have innate to his character high DR because DR itself should scale to the campaign, not be a set cost. He doesn't want his character to be wearing armor, he wants his character to have it naturally and be able to laugh at lightsabers same as a knight in medieval times would laugh at a stone knife.

Also, to be more clear in case I wasn't, my Superman example was meant to explain why the Damage Resistance power cost does not scale to the campaign.

[Varyon]

I mean... he's not entirely wrong (although [5] for DR 300 is rather excessively low). A lot of forumites - GM's and players alike - feel that many Advantages should have their costs scaled to the setting (this typically comes up as TL-based scaling). A character at TL 9 can buy a 6 lb Reflex Bodysuit for $900 (3% starting wealth) and get DR 12/4* (pi and cut/everything else), which would cost somewhere around [35] to buy as innate DR - DR 4 (Flexible -20%) [16] + DR 8 (Flexible -20%; Piercing Only -40%) [16] + DR 8 (Flexible -20%; Cutting Only -40%; Alternate Ability x1/5) [3.1]. That causes a discrepancy between characters who have innate abilities, and those who use gear. An option to address this is to allow the player to purchase the equivalent items as Signature Gear, buy sufficient Payload to negate its weight, and then buy off the functional Gadget Limitations the gear has, turning it into an innate ability. If the player wants their character to have higher performance than what gear in the setting can provide, there would need to be a premium paid for that. Offhand, just having the pricing revert to the default prices might work.

Of course, if you'd rather not do that and want to stick with the book prices - which is a perfectly legitimate option - you can do that. It appears some of your players may opt to vote with their feet and not play in your game, but it's an option. I can't really tell you how to convince them to pay what they see as an extreme cost - I guess just tell them those traits are inefficient in the campaign and they're better off buying gear to take its place. They may also find it worthwhile to invest in alternative traits with similar effects - Superman will get more use out of IT:DR than DR for the points. Just like a speedster will want to buy Enhanced Move (Second Nature +150%) for [50] per x2 rather than buying up Basic Move for [5] per +1.

[Purple Snit]

The point of having set costs is so that characters are all built on the same framework. Blindness is -60 points, DR is 5 pts/point, ST is 10 pts a level, and so on. If you start changing elements to please one player, where does that stop? DR is a major game-changer in any campaign, and if you want to be rocket-proof, it's going to cost you. That's all there is to it.
And if you can't grasp that rules serve a purpose, and expect special exemtions for anything you don't understand, then yes, get off my lawn.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

, he wants his character to be able to absorb blaster rifles and force sword, .

Does he at least understand that what he really wants is about DR 30 with 3 levels of Hardened rather than DR 300?

[Ragabash Moon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Does he at least understand that what he really wants is about DR 30 with 3 levels of Hardened rather than DR 300?

Well that was only my example to try to explain why DR costs do not scale, but he wasn't even willing to look at those kinds of options as he saw that innate DR price not scaling directly to the damage able to be dealt in the campaign was the issue.

Even when I mentioned an NPC that has equivalent of DR 40 (she has IIRC 5 levels of hardened on her skeleton, then an ablative flesh layer. She's basically a terminator equivalent) and can shrug off blasters he seemed to still think that level of DR should be the same cost as DR 5 in a higher tech campaign setting.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

So I have a new player who... Seems to have a fundamental problem with the game itself, and I've tried to explain it to him, but he keeps saying it makes no sense.

The setting is a futuristic one, with exotic powers. So, he wants his character to be able to absorb blaster rifles and force sword, but this is expensive. Damage Resistance cost should be scaled to the campaign he thinks.

I gave the players in my last Ultratech game an 80% discount for any piece of implant cyberware that had the same function of as minimal weight equipment. So they could buy Infrared Vision (Technological replacement -80%) [3] and get a lot of things as Perks. It was a little high-powered, but it worked fine, and it seemed foolish to charge people a fortune for implanted gear when they could buy external gear for peanuts. I'd rather have PCs spend a small amount of CP for cyberware with IR Vision then have everyone be Wealthy and buy nearly equivalent gear in cash.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but it's not an entirely unreasonable request. Enough DR to soak TL appropriate weapons should cost 30-50 CP. I wouldn't let him get it for 5 CP, but I'd try to work with the guy.

[Ragabash Moon]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

I gave the players in my last Ultratech game an 80% discount for any piece of implant cyberware that had the same function of as minimal weight equipment. So they could buy Infrared Vision (Technological replacement -80%) [3] and get a lot of things as Perks. It was a little high-powered, but it worked fine, and it seemed foolish to charge people a fortune for implanted gear when they could buy external gear for peanuts. I'd rather have PCs spend a small amount of CP for cyberware with IR Vision then have everyone be Wealthy and buy nearly equivalent gear in cash.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but it's not an entirely unreasonable request. Enough DR to soak TL appropriate weapons should cost 30-50 CP. I wouldn't let him get it for 5 CP, but I'd try to work with the guy.

Yes, that does sound reasonable, but he wanted it to be actual innate powers like Wolverine after the adamantium upgrade but without the adamantium upgrade being necessary? Does that make sense?

Plus I feel like he thinks I as the GM (who as I said, have been playing GURPS since 1987) don't understand these things and am going to just TPK the first combat.

[Anaraxes]

There's an argument for being able to match whatever equipment the setting tech easily provides to all characters for few (if any) character points. If, for example, just about anybody can get a 7D assault/battle rifle for mere cash, then a 7D Innate Attack at 35 points seems steep.

Since "mere" cash isn't totally CP-free, we could value it at Sig Gear or extra starting cash rates in CP. And there are some advantages to an IA over a slung rifle -- no weight, can't spot it when it's not in use, can't be stolen, etc. So a small CP charge along the lines of Sig Gear doesn't seem inappropriate -- but that's really for those extra little advantages, not for the attack itself. Unusual Background for "my assault rifle is invisible, weightless, and doesn't consume ammo".

So, you might have a rule that you can buy innate versions of the attack of the blaster rifle, DR of the power armor, etc, for points equal to that gear as Sig Gear -- only without the gear. Abilities in excess of mundane gear do cost as usual. 7D Innate Attack might be 5 CP for the cost of a rifle, and you build on that normally. 10D attack would 5 base + 3x5 = 20 CP, for example, not the 50 it costs normally. If you can buy a DR 18 nanoweave bodysuit from Ultra-Tech for $900, then just having DR 18 might cost just 1 CP rather than 90.

RAW even has a nod in this direction with the Accessory Perk. You can take a magic power equal to any mundane gear the GM allows for 1 CP. That rule specifically excludes weapons, likely as an anti-munchkin measure. But I'm not sure that's necessary. (The munchkin will just stick to whatever high-powered weapons-as-equipment they can loot or steal for free, and spend their points on things otherwise unobtainable.)