Countering the dual rapier fencer

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

I don't see on p. 108 where it states that "a physical shield provides no protection against any level of occult attack". Staff 3 zaps and above bypass armor. However, I don't see where Staff 1 and 2 zaps bypass shields provided that the facing allows it.

Yes, interpreting the rules to mean that all staff occult zaps bypass shields is clearly a stretch.

[hcobb]

Shields protect against illusions of fire elementals (melee, not HTH attack), but not illusions of fire hexes, both of which are (for this game) physical attacks. The other category of spells they protect against are the missile spells. Hence no protection against thrown or special spells such as Blast (ITL 23), while cloth armor would offer some protection against all of the above (except for Staff III+ occult attack, or other special exceptions such as the Death spell).

Q: Evil Halfling Wizard (redundant I know), slings an 8d explosive gem into the hex of one knight who is in a front hex of another knight. (both facing this obvious threat of course.) Do their shields help protect against this "physical attack"?

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Shields protect against illusions of fire elementals (melee, not HTH attack), but not illusions of fire hexes, both of which are (for this game) physical attacks. The other category of spells they protect against are the missile spells. Hence no protection against thrown or special spells such as Blast (ITL 23), while cloth armor would offer some protection against all of the above (except for Staff III+ occult attack, or other special exceptions such as the Death spell).

None of that suggests that Staff I and Staff II occult attacks bypass shields.

Q: Evil Halfling Wizard (redundant I know), slings an 8d explosive gem into the hex of one knight who is in a front hex of another knight. (both facing this obvious threat of course.) Do their shields help protect against this "physical attack"?

Yes, of course it would.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Shields protect against illusions of fire elementals (melee, not HTH attack), but not illusions of fire hexes, both of which are (for this game) physical attacks. The other category of spells they protect against are the missile spells. Hence no protection against thrown or special spells such as Blast (ITL 23), while cloth armor would offer some protection against all of the above (except for Staff III+ occult attack, or other special exceptions such as the Death spell).

Let's be cautious about being overly literal in this interpretation, however. Shields protect because they intercept or interrupt directed force or energy. Thus, I would argue that a shield would absolutely be effective against BLAST, though perhaps only partially. The question of a shield's effectiveness vs. the 'occult blast' (which isn't really relevant to the original topic, TBH) is a bit less clear, but I still think common sense would say that putting an object in between the wizard and their target should provide the latter with some measure of protection.

[Drakenbow]

In a previous thread (from me) I do beleive someone pointed out that the Staff's Occult is essentially a thrown spell from p.140 (and the staff is essentially a Magic Item p.148 which the holder employs to 'throw' the spell). The spell is a hit or miss and no DX penalty for intevening figures.

I am trying to find other thrown spells that do damage directly, not those which give the recipient an ability to do damage like Breath Fire or Hammer Touch.

With that I would agree with HCOBB that shields do not provide defense against the Occult attack when reading p.108 "Shileds protect against physical or missile-spell attacks..."

But considering that the Fencing weapons do 2-1 damage (saber with the +1 bonus), wouldn't just wearing heavier armor tend to reduce damage quite a bit? I might be missing the point of the discussion though.

[hcobb]

Hermina, Human, age 20
ST 9, DX 12, IQ 11, MA 10
Talents include: Fencer, Knife, Miner (mundane), Physicker, Shield Expertise, Tactics
Language: Common
Weapon: Fine rapier (1d+2), dagger (1d-1)
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d-3)
Special Ability/Weakness:
Armor: Small shield stops 2 hits, -2 to be hit
Equipment: middle class clothing, Labyrinth kit, Physicker’s kit, backpack, belt pouch, waterskin, 2 healing potions, $82 in coin.

28.5 pounds of encumbrance, swimming at -5 DX, can pick up only another 7.5 pounds before slowing down.

The main disadvantage of this configuration is that the small shield is made out of lead so really slows you down. (Also the memory points are extremely tight.)


Aichmira, Human, age 20
ST 8, DX 12, IQ 12, MA 10
Talents include: Acrobatics, Alertness, Naturalist, Tactics, Unarmed Combat III, Woodsman
Language: Common
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d-1)
Armor: UC III stops 2 hits, -2 to be hit
Equipment: Middle class clothing, backpack, Labyrinth kit, Brand, Belt pouch, waterskin, 5 healing potions, $72 in coins

Here we see almost the same level of defense, with a 50/50 chance of sweeping the fencer off her feet.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Drakenbow

In a previous thread (from me) I do beleive someone pointed out that the Staff's Occult is essentially a thrown spell from p.140 (and the staff is essentially a Magic Item p.148 which the holder employs to 'throw' the spell). The spell is a hit or miss and no DX penalty for intevening figures.

I am trying to find other thrown spells that do damage directly, not those which give the recipient an ability to do damage like Breath Fire or Hammer Touch.

With that I would agree with HCOBB that shields do not provide defense against the Occult attack when reading p.108 "Shileds protect against physical or missile-spell attacks..."

But considering that the Fencing weapons do 2-1 damage (saber with the +1 bonus), wouldn't just wearing heavier armor tend to reduce damage quite a bit? I might be missing the point of the discussion though.

I do NOT regard the staff's occult strike as a thrown spell or, indeed, any sort of spell at all. It is called an "attack" in the description. It is never called a spell, much less a thrown spell.

It's either a special kind of attack or a special kind of spell. I regard it as the former, since that's consistent with the text -- though, of course, we shouldn't read everything in ITL too literally, so if some other GM wants to call it a thrown spell, so be it.

[larsdangly]

A simple but often overlooked approach is to simply have enough armor protection that a rapier, even with the damage bonus and shrewd thrust, the overall expected value on each attack isn't really a show stopper. At the sort of experience levels where a fencer has a great DX, maybe high enough ST to use sabers, etc. (i.e., the kind of fencer that fencing advocates like to talk about), their opponent could have so much armor that even 2d+1 will likely as not do nothing. The starting fencer (9/12/11) is a fun character to play, but mostly misses their shrewd thrusts; also, their defensive benefits are cool, but you have to bring something to the table besides a good defense if you want to win a fight.

[hcobb]

The counter to plate and tower shield is to drop the fencer and just bring the dagger expert to the party.

Smilebringer, Goblin, age 20
ST 6, DX 15, IQ 11, MA 10
Talents include: Acrobatics, Alertness, Dagger Expertise, Thrown Weapons
Languages: Common, Goblin
Weapon: 2 very fine daggers (1d+2), several ordinary daggers (1d)
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d-4)

After two turns of waiting for an opening behind the uber defend has adjDX 15+2-6 = 11 or less to stab an eyeball.

[phiwum]

I'm not sure how that responds to Lars's point. You asked for ways to beat a fencer. He mentioned that armor is a good way, so you suggest that we should forget the fencer and think about puny dagger experts.

It just somehow doesn't seem particularly on point.