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Old 09-15-2023, 11:49 PM   #1
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default untalented weapon usage

ITL 36 states, "figure who is not skilled with a weapon may still
use it but he rolls 4 dice to hit, not 3"

but

ITL 115 states, "However, the DX of a figure without the Crossbow talent will be at -4."

ITL 124 states, "Anyone without Guns talent has a -6 to use this."


I believe 115 and 124 references are just the old ITL that did not get updated when they gave us the new rule for untalented weapon use found on ITL 36.

Or, it may be a DX penalty on top of ITL 36 added fourth die to the role.

And if it is just old references, then it does not seem to be enough for the gunpowder weapons since it is DX -6. How do you adjust attack with untalented gunpowder weapon use?

Is this is in an errata?
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Old 09-16-2023, 07:55 AM   #2
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Indiana
Default Re: untalented weapon usage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
ITL 36 states, "figure who is not skilled with a weapon may still
use it but he rolls 4 dice to hit, not 3"

but

ITL 115 states, "However, the DX of a figure without the Crossbow talent will be at -4."

ITL 124 states, "Anyone without Guns talent has a -6 to use this."


I believe 115 and 124 references are just the old ITL that did not get updated when they gave us the new rule for untalented weapon use found on ITL 36.

Or, it may be a DX penalty on top of ITL 36 added fourth die to the role.

And if it is just old references, then it does not seem to be enough for the gunpowder weapons since it is DX -6. How do you adjust attack with untalented gunpowder weapon use?

Is this is in an errata?
Great question.

I have used the -4 or -6 DX as opposed to 4/DX. I wouldn't doubt it if the Legacy rules intended for it to be 4/DX added with the DX minuses. Legacy TFT seems to be heavy on NERFing and being fun police as compared to Classic TFT.

I guess if someone is lucky with dice, their PCs can use just about any weapon regardless of how you do it.
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Old 09-16-2023, 07:55 AM   #3
warhorse11h
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: untalented weapon usage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
ITL 36 states, "figure who is not skilled with a weapon may still
use it but he rolls 4 dice to hit, not 3"

but

ITL 115 states, "However, the DX of a figure without the Crossbow talent will be at -4."

ITL 124 states, "Anyone without Guns talent has a -6 to use this."


I believe 115 and 124 references are just the old ITL that did not get updated when they gave us the new rule for untalented weapon use found on ITL 36.

Or, it may be a DX penalty on top of ITL 36 added fourth die to the role.

And if it is just old references, then it does not seem to be enough for the gunpowder weapons since it is DX -6. How do you adjust attack with untalented gunpowder weapon use?

Is this is in an errata?
It seems, from the way they are written, that the rules for untalented use of crossbows and gunpowder weapons require both a fourth die and the specific DX modifiers you listed.
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Old 09-16-2023, 08:54 AM   #4
hcobb
 
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: untalented weapon usage

The extra die of Legacy makes breaking weapons you don't know how to properly use much more likely.
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Old 09-16-2023, 11:32 AM   #5
timm meyers
 
Join Date: May 2020
Default Re: untalented weapon usage

A club can be used by anyone (p.122) at no DX penalty.
I think replacing the weapon damage of the untrained character swinging the sword or spear etc with club damage would be more appropriate than DX modifiers.
Grandma is just as likely to hit you with a broom or a spear as she desperately defends the cookie jar but lacking the pole weapon talent is unlikely to cause stabbing damage as she swats away at the perpetrator. (Of course, the minimum ST requirements would still cause DX modifiers if she is weak and frail.)

Guns and crossbows? One of the main historical results of these "simple to aim" weapons was the effectiveness they had with minimal or no training. Again grandma on the porch with a gun is not to be taken lightly. The higher DX modifier for guns seems to be more trying to represent the mechanics of loading, I guess?

This topic is innately complicated and any simplified system like TFT is not going to be completely balanced. Myself I would stick with the -4 DX all round, but I'm old and find change difficult (5/IQ roll at least).
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Old 09-16-2023, 11:32 AM   #6
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Indiana
Default Re: untalented weapon usage

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
The extra die of Legacy makes breaking weapons you don't know how to properly use much more likely.
That may be true but it doesn't answer the question of the OP.

Is the 4/DX added to the other mentioned adjustments to DX?
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Old 09-16-2023, 11:36 AM   #7
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Indiana
Default Re: untalented weapon usage

Quote:
Originally Posted by timm meyers View Post
A club can be used by anyone (p.122) at no DX penalty.
I think replacing the weapon damage of the untrained character swinging the sword or spear etc with club damage would be more appropriate than DX modifiers.
Grandma is just as likely to hit you with a broom or a spear as she desperately defends the cookie jar but lacking the pole weapon talent is unlikely to cause stabbing damage as she swats away at the perpetrator. (Of course, the minimum ST requirements would still cause DX modifiers if she is weak and frail.)

Guns and crossbows? One of the main historical results of these "simple to aim" weapons was the effectiveness they had with minimal or no training. Again grandma on the porch with a gun is not to be taken lightly. The higher DX modifier for guns seems to be more trying to represent the mechanics of loading, I guess?

This topic is innately complicated and any simplified system like TFT is not going to be completely balanced. Myself I would stick with the -4 DX all round, but I'm old and find change difficult (5/IQ roll at least).
I concur and resemble your 5/IQ roll too. LOL!

Treat it like a club that has a minimum ST to wield. Take into account if 1 or 2 hands are being used. If the PC stipulates that they are attempting to inflict normal weapon type damage, then adjust the DX as required per GM interpretation of the conflicting rules.

Last edited by Bill_in_IN; 09-16-2023 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 09-16-2023, 11:39 AM   #8
Drakenbow
 
Join Date: Sep 2023
Default Re: untalented weapon usage

Quote:
Originally Posted by warhorse11h View Post
It seems, from the way they are written, that the rules for untalented use of crossbows and gunpowder weapons require both a fourth die and the specific DX modifiers you listed.
I agree. But from what I understand about crossbows is that unskilled use was rather common place and that the crossbow was exceptionally easy to use.

I guess use one or the other. Or use the crossbow and gun penalties for crossbows and guns, and all other weapons use the four dice.

IDK
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Old 09-17-2023, 03:22 PM   #9
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: untalented weapon usage

I looked these up in my old ITL and Advanced Melee. Unskilled use was consistently DX -4 through out and never 4/DX to hit.

In the crossbow section and the gun section, the DX -4 is mentioned again.

Furthermore, the Arquebus user used to get a DX +4 with the Guns talent.

So, I think these changes just never took the 4/DX into consideration. I suspect that a more accurate change for untalented use would be:
- crossbows just get the 4/DX (and skip the DX -4)
- guns get 5/DX (instead of DX -6 or what formerly used to be a 8 point difference)

It would be nice if an errata would clear this up since we are all just guessing.
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Old 09-19-2023, 11:47 AM   #10
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Indiana
Default Re: untalented weapon usage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
I looked these up in my old ITL and Advanced Melee. Unskilled use was consistently DX -4 through out and never 4/DX to hit.

In the crossbow section and the gun section, the DX -4 is mentioned again.

Furthermore, the Arquebus user used to get a DX +4 with the Guns talent.

So, I think these changes just never took the 4/DX into consideration. I suspect that a more accurate change for untalented use would be:
- crossbows just get the 4/DX (and skip the DX -4)
- guns get 5/DX (instead of DX -6 or what formerly used to be a 8 point difference)

It would be nice if an errata would clear this up since we are all just guessing.
That sounds reasonable, as is.

An alternate suggestion is that the unskilled gun adjustment could be 4/DX but no chance for reload due to lack of skill/knowledge. The gun would have to be loaded before they attempted to wield/use it. Or, it could take them twice as long to reload and aim it.
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