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Old 10-02-2023, 06:36 PM   #21
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Indiana
Default Re: Explosive gems

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
The fights my characters seem to find themselves in are ones in which they both might die and might not make a profit.
Ain't that the truth. LOL!
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Old 10-02-2023, 07:59 PM   #22
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Default Re: Explosive gems

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
The fights my characters seem to find themselves in are ones in which they both might die and might not make a profit.
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Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN View Post
Ain't that the truth. LOL!
Maybe your GM doesn't buy into heroic escapism. Maybe he has crafted your adventures to match his understanding of life in a cold, uncaring universe.

Maybe you should be be thankful for adventures that reflect a basic reality, namely that life is difficult, that risk is omnipresent and that you are not special. Just embrace the impotence and try to get through it without attracting attention to yourself.
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Old 10-02-2023, 08:20 PM   #23
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Default Re: Explosive gems

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Maybe your GM doesn't buy into heroic escapism. Maybe he has crafted your adventures to match his understanding of life in a cold, uncaring universe.

Maybe you should be be thankful for adventures that reflect a basic reality, namely that life is difficult, that risk is omnipresent and that you are not special. Just embrace the impotence and try to get through it without attracting attention to yourself.
Itís a great campaign! My post was an observation without criticism.
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Old 10-03-2023, 07:50 AM   #24
Bill_in_IN
 
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Default Re: Explosive gems

Back to the topic of Explosive Gems and their cost. Since the actual cost is not referenced in any of the magic items info, it really is up to the wizard/GM to come up with a cost structure while their could be no cost structure at all either. In the later case, each wizard sets their rates as they see fit.

phiwum started talking about it in terms of the amount of apprentices and their time which actually does come in to be reasonably cheap for what you get. That is a business case approach which boils it down to a minimum cost for the wizard and/or apprentices and still make some money for their services per the rates in ITL.

It was then proposed that the gems themselves (without explosive enchantment) need to cost more if the intention is to store more damage into them. The geometric rate of doubling cost is OK for the first few dice but becomes outrageous soon thereafter.

Then, there is the danger factor for any wizard performing this enchantment. All apprentices could avoid damage by ensuring that are two hexes away but the casting wizard is in true danger. Even fully enchanted silver fine plate armor couldn't avoid damage taken by the wizard if he is attempting to make a 3 die gem and fails. Even adding diamond flesh would only increase protection up a couple of more dice for the gem. The danger factor is perceived differently for each wizard. I reference my own experience working with high voltages for over 30 years. Some people don't mind being close to it while still being very careful. Some people won't get near it no matter how much you pay them. The same kind of situation exists where ordinance/ammunition is made or handled.

So, in my opinion, a reasonable approach would be:
1. Keep the minimum gem cost at $50. You can spend more if you want.
2. Start with minimum cost as described by phiwum in the second paragraph of his OP.
3. Add cost elements for additional material and the danger factor. You are on your own here. As the damage of the gems increases, so does the danger. Each wizard has his own tolerance for damage versus the money that can be made.

There you all go. It's as clear as mud.

So, in the case of my previously mentioned and slightly experienced wizard of ST 8 with cloth armor, I envision the following.

For a 1 or 2 Die Gem, the gem is on a heavy made table with a thick wooden separator like a wall or door that can absorb damage. This wall has nicely made chainmail gloves and sleeves (probably silver) that can extend toward the table and allow access to cast the enchantment into the gem. You could start from this base and beef it up for stronger explosive gems. Apprentices could stand next to the wizard to cast aid spells his way and they could ensure that they are two hexes away from the blast or the protective wall could be made larger to block more hexes from the blast. I do allow for a thrown spell DX adjustment to be waived if the wizard casting it is touching the target.

The moral of this story is that the cost of explosive gems is at the mercy of the wizard's tolerance to danger. Functionally, this is tolerance to their chance to roll an 18 for DX while taking into account that cost of the material mitigations employed. Of course, this danger increases as the explosive power of the gem increases. This danger/damage can be mitigated via previously described material costs which can become very high. Have at it guys!

Last edited by Bill_in_IN; 10-03-2023 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 10-03-2023, 07:53 AM   #25
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
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Default Re: Explosive gems

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Where do you find the apprentices that will stand next to and Aid the wizard who's about to roll 18?
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Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN View Post
I understand that factor. Interpret it as you wish.
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Originally Posted by Drakenbow View Post
The former is rather humorous.

Grand Wizard "Now my appretices, give me your strenth so I can create a most powerful Explosive Gem the world has seen!!!"

Appretices all take one step further back and decide for the extra -1 DX.
@Drakenbow

I thank you for pulling these comments together. It did help to re-calibrate my perspective on this topic.
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Old 10-03-2023, 09:16 AM   #26
Drakenbow
 
Join Date: Sep 2023
Default Re: Explosive gems

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Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN View Post
Back to the topic of Explosive Gems and their cost.
....
I do allow for a thrown spell DX adjustment to be waived if the wizard casting it is touching the target.

The moral of this story is that the cost of explosive gems is at the mercy of the wizard's tolerance to danger. Functionally, this is tolerance to their chance to roll an 18 for DX
Sounds like the casting wizard needs to have a lucky Charm to mitigate that roll of 18.

Tangent due to a comment: You mentioned for your house rules to waive certain thrown spell DX adjustments. There is for fighters an optional rule on p.127 "Waiting for an Opening" which I've been mulling around in my head for a similar version for wizards I would call "Taking Your Time". This would allow a wizard using the same constraints of not "moving, dodging, attacking, disbelieving, etc," for up to two turns to gain a DX bonus to casting.
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Old 10-03-2023, 11:17 AM   #27
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
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Default Re: Explosive gems

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Originally Posted by Drakenbow View Post
Sounds like the casting wizard needs to have a lucky Charm to mitigate that roll of 18.

Tangent due to a comment: You mentioned for your house rules to waive certain thrown spell DX adjustments. There is for fighters an optional rule on p.127 "Waiting for an Opening" which I've been mulling around in my head for a similar version for wizards I would call "Taking Your Time". This would allow a wizard using the same constraints of not "moving, dodging, attacking, disbelieving, etc," for up to two turns to gain a DX bonus to casting.
I would have to double check the option in ITL. I know that you can wait a turn with missile weapons while aiming at a target to get a +1DX bonus. I can't remember if missile spells are included but extending it to that is worthy of discussion. Also, I would have to check ITL on its application to throw weapons/spells. I don't have ITL handy right now.
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Old 10-03-2023, 11:34 AM   #28
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Explosive gems

Turn your staff II into a sling staff so you ignore critical failures.
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Old 10-03-2023, 02:27 PM   #29
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Default Re: Explosive gems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakenbow View Post
Sounds like the casting wizard needs to have a lucky Charm to mitigate that roll of 18.

Tangent due to a comment: You mentioned for your house rules to waive certain thrown spell DX adjustments. There is for fighters an optional rule on p.127 "Waiting for an Opening" which I've been mulling around in my head for a similar version for wizards I would call "Taking Your Time". This would allow a wizard using the same constraints of not "moving, dodging, attacking, disbelieving, etc," for up to two turns to gain a DX bonus to casting.
Per RAW, an 18 is an 18. Getting a DX bonus doesn't change that.

Though a curse spell does change it, since it adds to the die roll. I guess a charm, mentioned above, takes away the chance of an 18, since it subtracts from the die roll.

At least that's how I read it.
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Old 10-03-2023, 03:10 PM   #30
Drakenbow
 
Join Date: Sep 2023
Default Re: Explosive gems

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Per RAW, an 18 is an 18. Getting a DX bonus doesn't change that.

Though a curse spell does change it, since it adds to the die roll. I guess a charm, mentioned above, takes away the chance of an 18, since it subtracts from the die roll.

At least that's how I read it.
Charm isn't a DX bonus. Legacy on p.162 doesn't quite live up to the explaination from the Codex (classic). It states the bonuse is added to the die roll and nothing about the actual attribute. The Codex is more clear.
-


Reference is the Codex, last page of the Q&As "Question on charms"
Q: Does a charm item effec the die roll before or after the check for automatics/criticals/fumbles? e.g. roll and (sic) 18 with +2 charms treat as 16 (auto miss) or 18 (break weapon)?

A: before, curse works the same way.

<two more questions>
-

So, it modifies the roll itself with the final result needing to be within the original range. eg having a +2 Charm changes a roll to hit of 5 into a 3 for triple damage, but it does not change a roll of 3 into a roll of 1.
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