Tactical Question: Disengage

[Aman]

Originally Posted by Shostak

The rules do explicitly state that one can change options before they act so long as they did not move too far to allow the new action. The example given is changing from Change Weapons to Attack when an enemy moves into your front hex after you moved and declared Change Weapons.

Is that Melee 3rd ed? Or Legacy ITL? What page?

[timm meyers]

Originally Posted by Aman

Is that Melee 3rd ed? Or Legacy ITL? What page?

p. 102 legacy ITL under list of options 1st paragraph explains this well I think.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by Aman

Is that Melee 3rd ed? Or Legacy ITL? What page?

Melee 2018 page 6: "may change his mind about a figure’s option"

[Steve Plambeck]

I only wish every version of the rules used the format for presenting the options that only appeared in Advanced Melee, pages 3-4. It is all so much more explicit there, there's practically no question about the intended design.

[Drakenbow]

I dont' think my gaming group from many years ago allowed for changing options after all movement was done. IMO I find changing options after movement and during the Actions phase to be a bit of a cheat method which is why I think we enacted that as a rule. We often did three or four combatants against each other - no teams

Eg two characters on one team closing in on a Crossbow wielder say two or three hexes away. Both choose Dodge because they haven't engaged yet. The Crossbow user chooses one of the two and attacks with the four dice. Now the other guy decides to change Options because the attack didn't come its way and throws a weapon.

The only Option changing we allowed was if everyone left HTH, the last character to choose to Stand Up now. And we allowed characters who choose to attack to change the target choice or change the spell choice. Or to choose not to attack.

IMO it gives low adjDX characters at times an unfair disadvantage. Imagine if a horde of any type of low DX critters all changed from the Defend option to Attack during the Action phase.

[hcobb]

This isn't new. See Advanced Melee 1980, page 4 "Changing Options"

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by Drakenbow

IMO it gives low adjDX characters at times an unfair disadvantage. Imagine if a horde of any type of low DX critters all changed from the Defend option to Attack during the Action phase.

Actually, without it the low DX characters are at a big disadvantage. The high DX characters get to take their action immediately after moving, so the situation is exactly as they had been expecting. But the low DX character would be committed to actions that the high DX characters can then manipulate.

For example, during move if the low DX guy engages to high DX characters. If he is forced to commit during movement, he says he is attacking character A. Character A just needs to disegage and his friend gets to attack without a worry.

Or say the low DX guy was getting attacked by a high DX and decided a defend would be best. To his good fortune, his team has an even higher DX archer who scores 8 damage on the high DX foe knocking him down. So, now the low DX guy is forced to defend against a prone foe? This is what most low DX guys wait for: a prone foe.

By the time a low DX character acts lots of things change. Forcing them into a decision by the end of movement can be crippling. It also remove the excitement of characters changing up to handle the fluid situations. This is great fun.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Drakenbow

I dont' think my gaming group from many years ago allowed for changing options after all movement was done. IMO I find changing options after movement and during the Actions phase to be a bit of a cheat method which is why I think we enacted that as a rule. We often did three or four combatants against each other - no teams

That's really restrictive. Changing options to meet changing conditions was built into the RAW since the beginning, and one of the things I find both logical and delightful.

Originally Posted by Drakenbow

Eg two characters on one team closing in on a Crossbow wielder say two or three hexes away. Both choose Dodge because they haven't engaged yet. The Crossbow user chooses one of the two and attacks with the four dice. Now the other guy decides to change Options because the attack didn't come its way and throws a weapon.

That's where Dodge does get dicey. Unlike the options that say move so far, then do this, do that, or do the other thing, this one says:

(c) DODGE. Move up to half its MA while dodging.

It's that word while used in the conjunctive sense that makes this one different, so it honestly can't be treated as flexibly as the other actions when it comes to last minute changes or take-backs. DODGE is an action during movement, not after. It could almost belong in that section of the rules headed Actions During Movement – Jumping, Etc. rather than under the Options.

So if you want to get really strict about that one, I can't disagree. The probable way to enforce the RAI is to require the players to declare they are taking DODGE while moving their counter, and that's that. It can only be chosen on the Movement Phase, and if it wasn't then you can't use it during the Action Phase. And if you did declare it during Movement, then you can't do anything else when your chance to act comes up. I'm not totally in favor of that myself, I'm just saying that's what the rules seem to really mean (even without being explicit enough about that).

That latter part bothers me though. Rationally a figure should be able to stop dodging when it wants to, although then its alternatives should be highly limited. It could want to stop dodging to intentionally draw fire to itself rather than someone else, and I can't see any reason to disallow that. It should also be allowed to simply drop to the floor if it sees any advantage to doing so -- then of course it's no longer dodging and subsequent attacks would only be on 3d6, not 4. But change from DODGE to an attack after saying you were dodging? No, never. Just having said it aloud might change the opposition's thinking and decisions even if they never mention it.

Now my way of doing it is to accept a declaration "I'm dodging" reactively from anyone the moment they are attacked, as long as they didn't exceed 1/2 MA during the Movement Phase, and as long as they've done nothing else yet on the Action Phase. But that locks them in for the rest of the turn -- they can't change their mind afterwards for any reason.

[catopower]

Though there's a LOT of discussion here, I just came here to get a better understanding of the disengagement option for Melee/Wizard. I used to play back when these first came out, and only recently reacquired the two as part of a boxed edition of the classic games.

I think I got the gist of the explanation of the basic rules in that it seems any fighter with a higher dexterity can pretty well choose when to fight, since his turn to attack always comes first and if he chooses to disengage he pretty well can't be touched.

In my case, this question came up with a spear-armed high DEX fighter with no armor. As long as he doesn't a higher DEX opponent, he can disengage until he's in a good position to make a 3-hex charge. In which case, if he hits, he does an extra die of damage, or 2D+1, and stands a good chance of knocking an opponent's adjusted DEX down at least -2 if not knocking him to the ground completely.

A few repeated maneuvers like this and he has a good chance of killing an opponent unscathed. Of course, there are always lucky/unlucky hits and encounters. But, them's the breaks.

[hcobb]

Even more powerful is to combine very fine javelin, small shield, Running, Pole Weapons Expertise, and Shield Expertise. If forced to move first then run off somewhere where the foe can't get a side shot at you. If moving second then stand vs charge. Force retreats and Disengage to ensure that every attack is a charge attack.