limitations for magery and powers: different?

dds_ks · 03-14-2010, 01:19 AM

Imagine a charakter with the advantage: "flight" (B56), with the limitation
"only while playing trumpet" (B110, -20%)

Now imagine a mage who knows the spell "flight" (M145) well enough to maintain it without cost (skill 25+). He took "magery" (B66) with the limitation "musical" (B67, -50%).

Now compare: Playing trumpet only is a 20 % discount for a power, but playing any instrument at hand is a 50 % discount for magery. So one should think that the limitation for magery is harder.

What happens if the condition was met at the time of activation/casting, but later ends?

The power-flyer needs to play the trumpet all the time of his flight. At the time he stops playing, he falls down.

How about the spellcaster? "Musical" says he has to play any instrument to cast a spell.
Does he have to play the instrument for the whole duration of the spell?
Or just to maintain the spell (= 1 second every minute)?
Or is he free to completely stop playing after the casting time?

Christian · 03-15-2010, 01:19 AM

*bump* No comments?

Nobody playing a "bard"? Away from the difference question, the more easily to answer question is the one in the lower part of DDS post. How long does the mage have to play his instrument? The whole spell duration? The casting time and once each maintainance time? Only the casting time?

starslayer · 03-15-2010, 11:28 AM

Here is how I see this:

By default magery has a time constraint that can be lowered by high skill.

Musical is slightly more restrictive then 'must be playing a tuba' since a PC playing a tuba does not necessarily need to be making music, just blowing with some force.

As I read it, if you take 'musical' you effectively cannot lower that time constraint (due to the time required to make some music)- further even if high skill allows spells to only take a second to cast do not take a second to cast since you must actually create some MUSIC before the spell can be cast. Since you have to actually make some music all of your spells may be a 'double clutch' of 'roll your musical instrument skill' then 'roll your spell skill'.

I would as a GM say that you must put together three seconds of musical composition before casting a spell; which means that your minimum amount of time to cast a spell is 4 seconds (three seconds to make some music, one second to cast the spell). Then I would severely consider if a different song/tone/pace is required for each non-blocking spell category (IE; playing an intense baroque piece might be good for the fire college, or direct damage spells in general, but not for force wall, dispel, or counter-spell); thus while the tuba playing flier can just keep blaring away a single note, the mage might need to take multiple three second composition checks to cast a variety of spells in a combat situation (and needs to have at least three second to warm up before having access to blocking spells).

David Johnston2 · 03-15-2010, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian

*bump* No comments?

Nobody playing a "bard"? Away from the difference question, the more easily to answer question is the one in the lower part of DDS post. How long does the mage have to play his instrument? The whole spell duration? The casting time and once each maintainance time? Only the casting time?

Given the severity of the limitation I have to assume that you have to play all through the spell, casting time and duration included. Also that you have to successfully make a musical skill roll.

Anaraxes · 03-15-2010, 04:32 PM

RAW says "while casting a spell", and says nothing about maintenance.

I don't think requiring playing during maintenance is unfair for a -50%. I've posted elsewhere recently that IMO the Magery discounts are already overly generous by comparison with Accessibility. Requiring continual playing for the duration of an ongoing effect also seems to me to fit the genre (the magic is the music, and when one stops so does the other).

The spells-as-skills system is not really directly comparable with spells-as-advantages. One was not derived from the other; they're different systems from the ground up. Consider, for example, that the Magery limitation only affects the cost of Magery itself, but not the (typically) dozens of other points in spells, whereas the Accessibility as a power modifier will return points for the total CP spent in power abilities.

dds_ks · 03-20-2010, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by starslayer

Here is how I see this:

... Musical is slightly more restrictive then 'must be playing a tuba' since a PC playing a tuba does not necessarily need to be making music, just blowing with some force...
...I would as a GM say that you must put together three seconds of musical composition...

So if I get you right: "musical" is in fact a combination of 1) having an instrument at hand, 2) knowing how to play it properly and 3) using some extra time, all three of it only at casting time.

Now a second question (surprise!): What about a bard with an unlimited magery 0 and another 20 levels of magery limited with "musical"?
Would you say he could CAST the spell at full cost, but after that he would be able to maintain it indefinitely (until he falls asleep or unconscious), as his limitation of magery doesn't apply to maintainance?

LemmingLord · 03-20-2010, 07:10 AM

Yes, the entire magic system given in GURPS Magic is a very different point based system then using advantages as powers.

To me, the GURPS Magic system is paying homeage to a nice system that worked in 3.0 but is poorly balanced for 4.0 play.

dds_ks · 04-17-2010, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

RAW says "while casting a spell", and says nothing about maintenance.

Sorry, it took some time, but I happened to read another section of the rulebook...

Magic Page 6, box: Influence of Manalevel on spellcasting. The word "cast" is mentinoned in every bullet point, "maintain" never. But on the other hand, I'm sure that Very High Mana means that you can cast and maintain and get your FP back at the end of the second you spent them, and I'm sure that in No Mana you can't maintain spells cast before (outside the No Mana Zone).
If this is right, then the rulebook used "cast" in the sense "cast and maintain" there. So we shouldn't try to get to much information about "while casting a spell" (and not mentioning "maintaining" explicitely) in another section of the same rulebook.

Not another shrubbery · 04-17-2010, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dds_ks

Magic Page 6, box: Influence of Manalevel on spellcasting. The word "cast" is mentinoned in every bullet point, "maintain" never. But on the other hand, I'm sure that Very High Mana means that you can cast and maintain and get your FP back at the end of the second you spent them, and I'm sure that in No Mana you can't maintain spells cast before (outside the No Mana Zone).
If this is right, then the rulebook used "cast" in the sense "cast and maintain" there. So we shouldn't try to get to much information about "while casting a spell" (and not mentioning "maintaining" explicitely) in another section of the same rulebook.

I'm fairly certain that "casting" in the sense that the Musical limitation uses it specifically means casting only, not casting and maintenance... not that it should matter terribly much for most purposes.

Are you still trying to ascertain the reason as to the difference in the limitations values (Magery vs.other advantages)?

03-14-2010, 01:19 AM	#1
dds_ks Join Date: Jan 2010	limitations for magery and powers: different? Imagine a charakter with the advantage: "flight" (B56), with the limitation "only while playing trumpet" (B110, -20%) Now imagine a mage who knows the spell "flight" (M145) well enough to maintain it without cost (skill 25+). He took "magery" (B66) with the limitation "musical" (B67, -50%). Now compare: Playing trumpet only is a 20 % discount for a power, but playing any instrument at hand is a 50 % discount for magery. So one should think that the limitation for magery is harder. What happens if the condition was met at the time of activation/casting, but later ends? The power-flyer needs to play the trumpet all the time of his flight. At the time he stops playing, he falls down. How about the spellcaster? "Musical" says he has to play any instrument to cast a spell. Does he have to play the instrument for the whole duration of the spell? Or just to maintain the spell (= 1 second every minute)? Or is he free to completely stop playing after the casting time?

03-15-2010, 01:19 AM	#2
Christian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Germany...for a few more months	Re: limitations for magery and powers: different? bump No comments? Nobody playing a "bard"? Away from the difference question, the more easily to answer question is the one in the lower part of DDS post. How long does the mage have to play his instrument? The whole spell duration? The casting time and once each maintainance time? Only the casting time? __________________ If you had the power to change history, where would you start? And more importantly, where would you stop?

03-15-2010, 11:28 AM	#3
starslayer Join Date: Dec 2006	Re: limitations for magery and powers: different? Here is how I see this: By default magery has a time constraint that can be lowered by high skill. Musical is slightly more restrictive then 'must be playing a tuba' since a PC playing a tuba does not necessarily need to be making music, just blowing with some force. As I read it, if you take 'musical' you effectively cannot lower that time constraint (due to the time required to make some music)- further even if high skill allows spells to only take a second to cast do not take a second to cast since you must actually create some MUSIC before the spell can be cast. Since you have to actually make some music all of your spells may be a 'double clutch' of 'roll your musical instrument skill' then 'roll your spell skill'. I would as a GM say that you must put together three seconds of musical composition before casting a spell; which means that your minimum amount of time to cast a spell is 4 seconds (three seconds to make some music, one second to cast the spell). Then I would severely consider if a different song/tone/pace is required for each non-blocking spell category (IE; playing an intense baroque piece might be good for the fire college, or direct damage spells in general, but not for force wall, dispel, or counter-spell); thus while the tuba playing flier can just keep blaring away a single note, the mage might need to take multiple three second composition checks to cast a variety of spells in a combat situation (and needs to have at least three second to warm up before having access to blocking spells).

03-15-2010, 04:32 PM	#5
Anaraxes Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: limitations for magery and powers: different? RAW says "while casting a spell", and says nothing about maintenance. I don't think requiring playing during maintenance is unfair for a -50%. I've posted elsewhere recently that IMO the Magery discounts are already overly generous by comparison with Accessibility. Requiring continual playing for the duration of an ongoing effect also seems to me to fit the genre (the magic is the music, and when one stops so does the other). The spells-as-skills system is not really directly comparable with spells-as-advantages. One was not derived from the other; they're different systems from the ground up. Consider, for example, that the Magery limitation only affects the cost of Magery itself, but not the (typically) dozens of other points in spells, whereas the Accessibility as a power modifier will return points for the total CP spent in power abilities.

03-20-2010, 07:10 AM	#7
LemmingLord Join Date: Jul 2005	Re: limitations for magery and powers: different? Yes, the entire magic system given in GURPS Magic is a very different point based system then using advantages as powers. To me, the GURPS Magic system is paying homeage to a nice system that worked in 3.0 but is poorly balanced for 4.0 play. __________________ Villain's Round Table