Sci Fi - the teeth and the tail

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by DeadParrot

In Star Trek type universes, star ships are their own tail. They supply at a base, travel to the adventure, then return to a base. Another short but wide tail.

That kind of depends on how you're dividing Tooth from Tail - most of the staff aboard a ship like Enterprise or Voyager are noncombatants, handling maintenance, scientific experiments, entertainment, medical services, diplomacy, etc. Of course, those are exploration ships more than warships, but I'd imagine even dedicated warships have a lot of noncombatants (probably more maintenance and medical services personnel - although the latter may largely be handled by combat medics - and fewer scientists, entertainers, and diplomats). Arguably the industrial base that allows for Starfleet (or whatever faction you're looking at) to stock and maintain the starports (themselves largely staffed by noncombatants) utilized by the ships could be counted as part of the Tail, unless you're specifically defining Tail as noncombatant military personnel.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by DeadParrot

Another thought. Some weapon systems change the type of tail needed.

ICBMs, regardless of the type of warhead, don't need a long supply tail. Once built, it carries itself to the target and does its thing. The supply tail in this case is the factory that makes it and the transport to the launcher. A short but possibly wide tail.

This can depend on the type of ICBM ... the old liquid fuelled ones also a required a fuelling train as it wasn't safe to keep them fuelled for any length of time.

Modern solid fuel boosters, on the other hand, more or less follow your point.

Although both do need programmed maintenance over time...

[jason taylor]

Remember we are talking about whole planets. The fuel and food needs probably can be provided by requisitions in a pinch. Tactically space war is usually presented as a revival of the Pacific Theater, but it is really not. Most islands in the Pacific were incapable of sustaining a fleet and the supplies had to be brought in.

By comparison not only can friendly worlds supply the fleet, they can rebuild it far farther forward than we are used to. It would be as if San Francisco was right next to Saipan.

Actually in a big interstellar war (like the Terran-Vilani war) fleets, troops, or even individual planets would be small change. What would matter would be dominance of the infrastructure of entire subsectors. Unless that is done a whole new fleet can be manufactured to replace losses making even a battle of annihilation only a tactical victory.

Those type of wars would not be typical. More typical would be ones with only two or three worlds (like Cetaganda vs Barrayar). In those kind the fate of tactical units matters in itself while in the ISW in Traveller, the Dominion War in Trek or other big wars Clausewitz is reversed and territory is the primary target rather than enemy force.

[Anthony]

The general definition of 'teeth' and 'tail' becomes problematic at high tech. After it comes out of the factory, a warhead goes through quite a few layers of delivery chain before actually arriving at the target. Which parts of the delivery chain are actually teeth? Presumably the missile that delivers it, but what about the truck that carries the missile? Does it matter whether the truck has to stop, unload the missile, and do setup before firing, or whether it can launch directly out of the truck's cargo bed?

[dcarson]

During WW II in the Pacific the US Navy has Service Squadrons that set up bases as they advanced. The one at Ulitih was the biggest and most forward. Over 6000 skilled workers, room to anchor 700 ships, floating drydocks big enough for a battleship. Could support more ships than Pearl harbor. So other than build new ships from scratch it was able to keep a fleet in action.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...len_Island.jpg

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by dcarson

During WW II in the Pacific the US Navy has Service Squadrons that set up bases as they advanced. The one at Ulitih was the biggest and most forward. Over 6000 skilled workers, room to anchor 700 ships, floating drydocks big enough for a battleship. Could support more ships than Pearl harbor. So other than build new ships from scratch it was able to keep a fleet in action.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...len_Island.jpg

It did. My point was that in a war with prosperous planets a few jumps away from the area of operations there would not be the need for such expediencies as the munitions could be manufactured nearby.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The general definition of 'teeth' and 'tail' becomes problematic at high tech. After it comes out of the factory, a warhead goes through quite a few layers of delivery chain before actually arriving at the target. Which parts of the delivery chain are actually teeth? Presumably the missile that delivers it, but what about the truck that carries the missile? Does it matter whether the truck has to stop, unload the missile, and do setup before firing, or whether it can launch directly out of the truck's cargo bed?

It seems fuzzily defined as it is being used here, for any period, since Roman Legions hardly operated with zero civilian infrastructure or logistical support.

The more typical usage comparing numbers of combat arms troops to support troops based on their nominal roles is easier to parse. In which case a missile launcher vehicle is teeth. and the transport vehicle that supplies it is tail. The civilian train that ships the missile from the factory is neither, because procurement logistics aren't part of it.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

It seems fuzzily defined as it is being used here, for any period, since Roman Legions hardly operated with zero civilian infrastructure or logistical support.

The more typical usage comparing numbers of combat arms troops to support troops based on their nominal roles is easier to parse. In which case a missile launcher vehicle is teeth. and the transport vehicle that supplies it is tail. The civilian train that ships the missile from the factory is neither, because procurement logistics aren't part of it.

It looks to me as if the book mentioned in the opening post may have given 'teeth' and 'tail' the definitions needed to support the desired conclusion.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

It looks to me as if the book mentioned in the opening post may have given 'teeth' and 'tail' the definitions needed to support the desired conclusion.

Its s blog post and it says:

This is the ratio of the number of actual combat troops (the ‘tooth’) to logistics and support personnel (the ‘tail’) in a fighting force. Note that these are individuals in the fighting force – the question of the supporting civilian economy is separate

So, exactly the same definition that I gave.

[cptbutton]

Originally Posted by dcarson

During WW II in the Pacific the US Navy has Service Squadrons that set up bases as they advanced. The one at Ulitih was the biggest and most forward. Over 6000 skilled workers, room to anchor 700 ships, floating drydocks big enough for a battleship. Could support more ships than Pearl harbor. So other than build new ships from scratch it was able to keep a fleet in action.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...len_Island.jpg

H. Beam Piper's The Cosmic Computer (vt Junkyard Planet) is set in a star system that became a huge supply base for an interstellar war, and is about the economic struggles of the system after all the troops win the war and go home, leaving incredible quantities of stuff behind.