Water Jet damage

[FenrisLoki]

Can someone clear up an issue for me. Reading the description of the various jet spell descriptions, it seems like water jet does crushing damage *in addition to* knockback. Am I reading this right? I have the 1st printing of 4th ed Magic and saw no corrections in the errata.

I am largely basing this on the fact that Snow Jet in the blue Cost section lists "The jet does 1d of knockback for every point put into it."

Water Jet says in the same blue Cost section "Does 1d damage for each point put into it." The main text of the spell states "It does knockback to all targets, and damage to creatures of flame; it can kill or knock down flying swarm creatures."

Does this mean the 1d damage only applies to creatures of flame? Seems like it but I wanted some clarification. Snow jet says the same, but it's blue Cost section lists the damage differently.

[RyanW]

That's the way I'd interpret it: 1d of damage, knockback only except versus fire elementals, etc.

Snow Jet should also probably harm fire elementals, come to think of it.

[Rolando]

I always interpret it as "knock back damage", not as regular crushing damage.


But I agree it may be interpreted as crushing damage and do knock back as regular crushing damage.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by RyanW

Snow Jet should also probably harm fire elementals, come to think of it.

It does. Now if you want something weird, Steam Jet does 1d-1 'scalding' damage (presumably burning that doesn't set fires) per point, does knockback, blinds on face hits, etc. and does double damage to creatures of fire or ice.

So being very hot water means it does more damage to very hot things. Actually, steam of the sort of pressure that would cause knockback would be doing cutting damage, not burn damage unless quite diffuse (but then it wouldn't penetrate heavy clothing, let alone armour). OTOH, this is no more weird than the way magical lightning works.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Rupert

It does. Now if you want something weird, Steam Jet does 1d-1 'scalding' damage (presumably burning that doesn't set fires) per point, does knockback, blinds on face hits, etc. and does double damage to creatures of fire or ice.

GURPS Magic is full of small inconsistencies and annoying omissions.

Unless the GM is willing to do a major overhaul to make spells from different colleges consistent in their effects, it's best to ignore foolish notions such as "consistency," "logic," or "laws of physics." It is magic, after all!

If the GM does do an overhaul, they need to look at game effects of a given vs. energy cost first, so that spells with equivalent prerequisite counts are approximately similar in effectiveness. For example, jet spells that do more damage than normal need to have drawbacks which make them slightly less desirable, while spells that do less damage need to have one or more benefits.

[Plane]

I figure it means it operates as "No wounding" unless you are made of fire.

I don't really like that though... isn't the whole reason fire creatures have Vulnerability x 2 from water attacks so that -100 +100% = taking damage from normally undamaging things?

[Inky]

Eh, I don't know, not having actually tried it or done the maths I don't know what happens if you squirt boiling water at a fire. Could go either way. Evaporation is a thing.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Plane

I don't really like that though... isn't the whole reason fire creatures have Vulnerability x 2 from water attacks so that -100 +100% = taking damage from normally undamaging things?

No. Vulnerability doesn't negate (or offset) No Wounding. The order of operations here is you roll for damage, see how much penetrates, and apply the relevant Wounding Modifier(s) as multipliers, not as percentage additions. So, if 5 points penetrate DR, you multiply by 0 for No Wounding and by 2 for Vulnerability x2, for at total of 0 wounding (any real number - and a lot of imaginary ones - multiplied by 0 is 0). Note if, instead of No Wounding on the attack, the target had overlapping Vulnerability and IT:DR, it's still a multiplier - if all crushing injury is reduced to 1/3rd due to the latter, and all water damage is doubled due to the former, you end up with 2/3rd (1/3*2) wounding.

For a Powers-based Water Jet to still wound fire elementals, you'd need No Wounding to have a Limitation, such as "Not against Fire Elementals." If that's -5%, then you're looking at No Wounding (Not against Fire Elementals -5%) -47.5% instead of just No Wounding -50%.

That said, some GM's might allow for caveats like that without needing to account for them points-wise. Much as it's suggested that a Water Jet Power be able to put out fires, soak things, etc, the GM is well within rights to say "Eh, it's a fire elemental, your Water Jet's "No Wounding" doesn't apply to it." He or she would then need to decide if it does normal wounding, or if the wounding is doubled (or more, depending on how the fire elemental is built) due to the Vulnerability.

Originally Posted by Polkageist

That's probably also an argument towards water jet doing some sort of damage by referencing high-pressure water cutting tools.

But we're playing with magic!

In the other jet thread I posted a thing about alternative fire-jet options that do damage and act like magic swords.

A "Water Sword Jet" spell could be an option, justifying itself as being like a high-pressure water cutter. It might function similarly to the basic uses of the Ensui from Flame of Recca (and an item made with it might resemble such a weapon).