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#361 | |||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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and if anything I'd have though an M79 grenade would travel even slower! (wiki listing rates tham at 76 m/s muzzle velocity, which modern bows will beat but not by huge amount actually, but then 150 yard shot even with a modern bow is a very long shot at an individual target!) Quote:
Last edited by Tomsdad; 01-31-2018 at 02:05 AM. |
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#362 | |||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Now, there are some weapons which are given Acc numbers that vary from what their mechanical accuracy expressed in Minutes Of Angle would indicate, usually to reflect a longer or shorter effective range in practice than precision alone would mean, and in such cases, the GM must either modify the specific number to accurately reflect the mechanical accuracy of individual weapons (or even rounds or chamberings)... or accept unrealistic but playable results in such edge cases. I expect 99% of GMs are fully content with the latter option (or even to ignore mechanical accuracy altogether). I happen to be the outlier. :-) Anyway, anecdotally, the mechanical accuracy of the M79 is enough to hit the center of the chest of a man-sized target reliably at 150 yards. This demands great skill of the user, mind you, with the ability to do this off-hand and on the first shot defining the sort of skill level that assaulters in DEVGRU squadrons refer to as 'great', but the actual mechanical accuracy is there. So, it'd hazard a guess of about 12" to 24" MOA being the mechanical accuracy of the M79, based on a very conservative interpretation of what 'center of the chest' means. That's probably Acc 2 in GURPS terms, by Doug Cole's unofficial (but baked into Tactical Shooting rules) GURPS Acc = MOA equivalency. Incidentally, according to Defence Research and Development Canada, the Mk19 MOD 3 groups only slightly over 3 MOA at 300 meters. That's Acc 4, in GURPS terms, rather than the Acc 2 it is given in High-Tech (where the Acc must also be taking into account the time of flight and inconvenient trajectory). As I suspected, for the purposes of the mechanical accuracy rule, at least, grenade launchers require special treatment, as their listed Acc reflects other factors than simply lack of precision. I suppose a case could be made that being mounted on a tripod adds to base Acc for the purposes of the rule, but that brings with it more pitfalls than it helps. In any case, giving the Mk19 MOD 3 the same Acc 3 as the never adopted proto-type of the XM25 wouldn't seem out of line, as it's certainly effective against point targets, even at very long ranges. The primary game-mechanical distinction between the smaller, more high tech weapon and the larger, old reliable one would be in the modifiers for the smart devices used with the XM25 or other similar systems. Quote:
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Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! Last edited by Icelander; 01-31-2018 at 03:23 AM. |
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#363 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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The 22+ 2xAcc rule is ultimately a game system simplification and was never intended to be a definitive model for RL ballistics for all projectile weapons. So I don't really have much issue bending it to match RL results especially in specific and unusual cases like this. Also it should be said it doesn't remove luck from the equation, that "centre chest at 150 yards" anecdote could have involved luck as well as skill! (I'm assuming that was in combat). The MOA cone is just that a cone after all and not all shots end up on the outer edge of it! *and actually looking at the Grenade launchers in Tactical shooting the SOG M79, cut down pistol grip version of the M79 which is expressly called out for it's reduced accuracy partly due to losing it's stock (which also appear to reference the "shortening a long arm" rules) has the same Acc as the full size HT M79. But then the other 40mm underbarrel launcher the ISTEC ISL201, has Acc 1 the same as the one's in HT The Russian 30mm TOZ GSN-19, has an Acc 2 through, so I guess 30mm are inherently more accurate than 40mm? (well unless the Russians have managed to make an inherently more accurate under barrel launcher at the same time as making a quieter one) However all the above can't just be looked in isolation, there is the overall body of work and TS's place in it to consider. And maybe if TS had suddenly by de-facto upped the accuracy of grenade launchers and thus be extension nerfed the HT listings that may have over stepped it's remit (however this is just me pondering out loud, so don't put any weight to this) Quote:
True enough! Last edited by Tomsdad; 01-31-2018 at 04:28 AM. |
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#364 | |||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Like the Acc 6 of .50 BMG rifles, when they aren't any more mechanically accurate than the average hunting rifle. It's meant to reflect the longer effective range of the weapon, as the large projectiles lose energy much more slowly than most lighter bullets. Quote:
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SEALs take their M79s seriously. Which I can understand, the Thumper having been a great force multiplier for small units for a very long time, with a lot of SEAL lore attached to it.
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Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! |
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#365 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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It's an interesting topic (but maybe not in your campaign thread, sorry for the digression) Quote:
Last edited by Tomsdad; 01-31-2018 at 04:48 AM. |
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#366 | ||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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*Unless things have gone so badly wrong that a convoy of one or more of: Hummvees, GMVs, Flyers, L-ATV, ALSVs or Strykers, is scrambled from Fort Bliss, TX, effectively invading Mexico to rescue federal agents and supporting JSOC personnel caught in a Gothic Serpent scale cluster-[fornication], except much more embarrassing and potentially international relationship-ruining, as the operation has most likely not been cleared with Mexican authorities (and may be unknown to Congress, senior administration figures who really should be informed and possibly the NCA). Note to us players, don't do that. Quote:
Comparing modern versions of the M79 'Pirate Gun' (11" to 13" OAL, very thick 3" barrel) with some of the weapons that get Bulk -2; like the MP7A1 with stock retracted (16.5" OAL, fairly bulky), Ingram MAC-10 with stock folded (11.6" OAL, very bulky), Lancaster Howdah pistol (11" OAL, four barrels), S&W No. 3, Colt New Army, Colt New Service and various other large revolvers with 5.5-6.5" barrels (ca 11" to 12" OAL, bulky cylinder), I'm comfortable with allowing the sleeker varieties of the 'Pirate Gun' to reach Bulk -2, for an effective Cost increase (really gunsmithing time) of +$250 or so. --- Compact AK carbines Next, I'm wondering if JSOC, SOCOM or the United States military in general would have access to many AKS-74U, AKMSU or the spare parts to easily make traditional AK-type rifles into very small, 'Krinkov' type AKMS carbines, i.e. short-barrelled 7.62x39mm carbines with shorter gas system and retractable or folding stock. The Mini Draco AK pistol, which was popular in the US for civilian SBR conversions of this sort, is fairly hard to obtain and prices have shot through the roof.* Most of the shorter pistol type AKs are also getting more expensive, even though SBRs made from them will usually turn out around 20" to 22" OAL, rather than the 16" to 16.5" OAL short-barrelled rifle (SBR) that the Draco pistol can be made into. US import restrictions on foreign firearms are responsible for some of the shortage, I believe. This would not bind government purchasers, so if Romanian, Bulgarian or other suppliers are able to turn out quality AKMS type weapons, or short AK pistols that can be made into that by adding a stock, they ought to be able to buy some. Even easier, if the AKS-74U was even marginally common on Afghani or Iraqi battlefields, JSOC could have stockpiled several dozen of them. Making an AKMSU can be done fairly easily by a qualified armourer by replacing the gas system and several other parts in an AKMS by parts from an AKS-74U, and then shortening the barrel. In the absence of easily available, economically priced AKS-74U or Mini Draco gas systems, however, I believe that JSOC would not expend time and fancy new German or Belgian rifle money on acquiring slightly more concealable AK-type rifles for a theoretical clandestine mission at some point in the future. After all, there hasn't been time to obtain a completely new weapon or to extensively modify an existing one. They've known about this specific mission for a week or two, not months. Which would restrict the JSOC operators, who are the PCs' back-up and security, to fairly standard AK rifles, possibly with shortened barrels and retractable or folding stock, but not any shorter than around 22" OAL with stock retracted or folded. More likely they'd have rifles with 24" to 29" OAL with stock folded or retracted. So, does anyone have a guess as to whether JSOC would find it easy and economic to quickly obtain the comparatively rare short gas system for AKs or weapons that make use of it? Or whether they were likely to have many captured AKS-74U in stocks, as opposed to a few used for training? *x3 to x5 in a few years.
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Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! Last edited by Icelander; 01-31-2018 at 07:03 AM. |
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#367 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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#368 |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Well, Fort Bliss is home to some wide open ranges enthusiastically used for test-driving tanks and live-fire exercises of nearly every weapon fielded by the US Army. The 1st Armored Division is stationed there, complete with Aviation Brigade, including Apache attack helicopters.
There is a whole lot of artillery, several thousand military vehicles, up to and including main battle tanks, and a weight of ordnance nearly unimaginable. Then there are the MQ-IC Grey Eagle UAVs, armed with smart bombs and Hellfire missiles. Their accuracy is good enough to strike moving vehicles with smart bombs. So if the PCs [fornicate] up, they can take comfort in knowing that the special effects will be good, as it could ignite a war between a cult-like splinter faction of the Knights Templar cartel and/or a group of renegade supersoldiers and the United States of America. Mexico would be in the war too, by default, but probably none too happy about it, as they've no wish to fight their northern neighbour, especially not on the behalf of an unusually loathsome DTOs, but neither can they ignore an invasion of their border. I suppose a possibility exists that they'd put a good face on it and call it a joint operation, especially if very senior Mexican figures were briefed on the clandestine mission beforehand. It is, however, unclear whether the full might and fury of the United States Army would be bent toward rescuing all the PCs... or making sure that some of them were killed in the fighting.
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#369 | |
Night Watchman
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
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It's still not as bad as a CoC scenario I ran where the SEALs realised after a while that their only likely use for small arms was preventing SEALs who'd failed their SAN rolls from attacking the Elder Things with heavy weapons.
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The Path of Cunning. Indexes: DFRPG Characters, Advantage of the Week, Disadvantage of the Week, Skill of the Week, Techniques. |
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#370 | ||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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And ordering elite military personnel to murder friendlies in cold blood, citizens of their own country, moreover, ones who would count as 'comrades-in-arms' by most Codes of Honour, is a pretty iffy call. Especially if you didn't get to pick your personnel, but just got assigned a platoon from DEVGRU Black Squadron. Remember, the Department of Homeland Security faction of JTF Onyx Rain doesn't trust the Department of Defense faction, for reasons both historical and recent. One can assume that the mistrust is mutual. Most soldiers aren't asssassins. Yes, the distinction between collateral damage and cold-blooded murder escapes some civilians and military critics, but to the codes of behaviour that many military personnel live by, there is a fundamental difference between calling in an air strike that kills foreign civilians as well as the primary targets and shooting citizens of your own country in the back of the head as they look to you for rescue. Basically, neither Taylor nor Anderson can imagine a situation where LCDR Wendell Dao would murder allies merely on the orders of a suit-clad superior in a highly secretive joint task force. Nor would he kidnap children to use as leverage against their parents, kill innocent American civilians simply because they witnessed something they shouldn't or torture a wife to give up her fleeing husband because he was a test subject at Project Jade Serenity, before killing her in such a way to make it look like a random, if brutal, home invasion. In light of the fact that Director Gujarat would order all of the above acts if she honestly believed it was the best way to safeguard her country, Onyx Rain really needs its own force of shooters, ideally one which the military members of Onxy Rain know little or nothing about. They might not be as competent as the DEVGRU operators, but they must possess qualities of their own. First and foremost, the ability to commit acts that most people would never, ever contemplate. Second, unquestioning obedience, however this is enforced.* I suggested that recruiting from BORTAC or Border Patrol in general might be practical, especially if they are willing to accept individuals with black marks on their records for shooting incidents. BORTAC is the federal special response unit most frequently involved in firefights and an unfortunate number of them have involved the questionable use of force against unarmed civilians. By going through psychological evaluations of BORTAC members and, perhaps even more so, those who have been forcibly retired from Border Patrol or found psychologically unsuitable for BORTAC, Onyx Rain might acquire some rough diamonds.** Not to mention that the former BORTAC members would have the right skill set, being experts in small unit tactics in their own right, if perhaps not Tier One hostage rescue team quality shooters. In my role as Assistant GM, I suggested that such a team already existed and was held in reserve if it proved necessary to sterilise the mission upon a sufficiently terrible failure. Dressed as rival cartel members, they'd kill everyone, PCs, Vargas and the USASF deserters. The SEALs wouldn't be told about that plan, they'd just be sent in too late to extract, being called back once it was clear that the shooting had stopped. Why shouldn't they accept that mask-wearing, AK-wielding gangsters in Mexico were rival cartel gunmen? I suspect that the 'Activity'/'Army of Northern Virginia'/Task Force Orange/ISA/MSA intelligence support personnel would be briefed on such an alternative. And if not, one or more of them might represent the DoD-faction's fall-back alternative within Onxy Rain. One or two sharpshooters in the right place can make sure that at least certain people aren't captured alive, no matter what happens. The modern technology answer to the DeLisle Carbine might not have been statted exclusively to equip an ally acting as the angel on the shoulder of the PCs... Not to mention that Onyx Rain might have the capability to guide a smart munition from a drone at the right place. Or, you know, Zachary Holden spent most of his adult life in the Special Activities Division of the CIA. He might not be able to jump out of planes or run through an obstacle course, but he's probably still capable of suborning a kill team of Mexican gunmen to carry out a targeted assassination. Or planting the occasional car bomb himself. *Good pay, good perks and the ability to blackmail the operator seem like a decent start. So is selecting fanatics and manipulating them, though that is obviously risky. **This shouldn't be read as implying that federal police officers in general or BORTAC officers in specific are any more likely to be effective assassins than soldiers. Simply that through their access to Homeland Security records, Director Gujarat and her closest circle of advisors can select for certain psychological profiles in a way that they cannot do when JSOC simply assigns them a platoon of special operators. Quote:
The closest a protagonist comes to an active role in a Lovecraft story is when he talks to government officials and convinces them to attempt genocide by dynamiting in the titular town of Innsmouth. Typically for Lovecraft, these interesting bits, the interactions with authorities, the planning and execution of the response; not to mention two-fisted jut-jawed G-Man pulp heroes fighting toe-to-toe with Deep Ones using Tommy Guns, flamethrowers and dynamite, all happen off-screen. Bugger the neurotic investigators, whose discoveries always seem to leave them invalids at best, I want to play the rough men who confront the horrors while the 'hero' broods on the [ethnic slur] in his woodpile, or the Deep One equivalent. And no matter how ancient, cosmic and incomprehensible the horrors, I want a fair shake at humanity giving as good as it gets. Inexorable doom might be astrophysically accurate, in the long run, but it's not very good fodder for gaming.
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Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! Last edited by Icelander; 01-31-2018 at 09:32 AM. |
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federal agencies, hans-christian vortisch, high-tech, jade serenity, modern firepower, special ops |
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