GURPS -> Dungeon Fantasy Conversion Thread

[Michael Thayne]

So I loves GURPS and GURPS Dungeon Fantasy but truth be told the changes made in DFRPG are pretty consistently good decisions. The big advantage of the first two is mostly in having far more sourcebooks available. So I thought would be helpful to start a thread for both general guidelines and specific examples of how to convert GURPS to DFRPG. Sure, it's mostly pretty straightforward, but having to pause to think about these things while making a PC or prepping for a session is annoying. So I thought it would be helpful to make a thread of both general guidelines and worked examples of how to convert GURPS to DFRPG. Who's in?

[Michael Thayne]

Dungeon Fantasy 3: The Next Level

Chapter 1: Nonhuman Races

As best I can tell, the original DFRPG boxed set includes everything in Adventurers and Dungeons. That makes The Next Level a logical place to start for conversions. The races have for the most part either already been converted or are useable as-is. The big exception that I can see is that Resistant to Metabolic Hazards (+3) [10] should generally be replaced with Resistant to Disease 5 [5]; Resistant to Poison 5 [5] (affects Dark Ones, Goblin-Kin and many but not all Half-Spirits). Also, for strict compatibility, since limitations don't exist in DFRPG, limited traits would technically have to be turned into new traits. For example, the Coleopteran's Damage Resistance might become "Carapace [15]" or something like that.

As far as I'm aware, these are the only changes necessary—am I missing anything?

EDIT: Given that per Companion 2 Infernals no longer need Infernal Gifts, Celestials probably shouldn't have Celestial Gifts either. Maybe replace with Covenant of Rest?

EDIT 2: Change "Musical Ability" to "Born Entertainer" on the High Elf and Faun templates.

[Michael Thayne]

Dungeon Fantasy 3: The Next Level (con't)

Chapter 2: Mixing Professions

This is where we get into cross-profession lenses. There's a lot of fiddly detail here, but again, I think most of it translates over unmodified. Exceptions:

• Bardic Talent costs 10 points/level in DFRPG. This means that, with the exception of the Wizard-Bard, you will have 2 fewer points in skills and special abilities. Avoid lowering Musical Instrument or Singing, since you need those for your Bard-Song abilities!
• Replace "Resistant to Poison (+3)" with "Resistant to Poison 5" on the following lenses: Bard-Barbarian, Druid-Barbarian, Druid-Holy Warrior, and Thief-Barbarian.
• EDIT: Change Musical Ability to Born Entertainer on all lenses for becoming a bard after starting in another profession.

Possibly there's some fiddly changes to skills missing—cases where DF3 tells you to spend 1 point on a skill that DFRPG would already have you spending 2+ points on. In that case I would just let players spend the odd point however they want. The price of Bardic Magery and Bard-Song Talent should be unchanged, since adding spells to the Bard spell list doesn't really change the usefulness of either of those talents. Finally, we already got canonical versions of the Evil Cleric and Unholy Warrior in Dungeon Fantasy Companion 2.

EDIT 2: Actually, the above neglects the fact that in DFRPG Bardic Talent grants skill bonuses that largely replace Musical Ability. More here.

Chapter 3: Power-Ups

If you want to use this section with DFRPG, a simple rule of thumb will never lead you astray: if it's redundant with an option already offered in Adventurers, use the DFRPG version, otherwise everything here is applicable without modification (aside from, and this might be the last time I say this, renaming things built with GURPS modifier system).

Chapter 4: New Capabilities

Everything here works as written, except if Companion 2 conflicts with this chapter regarding Unholy Warrior abilities, you should follow the former.

[Emerikol]

I didn't realize there were all that many differences in actual rules. A translation sheet would probably be handy. Unlike you, I'm not as fond of DFRPG and will probably stick with the standalone books. I might though as all good GMs do steal any idea I think is better from DFRPG.

[dataweaver]

To each their own. In my case, I'm thoroughly fluent in GURPS and would normally have no problem using GURPS Dungeon Fantasy myself; but the group I'm with isn't; most of them are a new generation of gamers whose only familiarity with RPGs to date has been D&D 5e. Dungeon Fantasy is ideal for us, in that the single biggest complaint I've heard from the group is that the D&D classes are too rigid for their liking. But jumping straight from there into GURPS proper is a bit much, so I'm trying to get them into DF first, with the goal of transitioning all the way into GURPS once they're comfortable with DF.

So This thread is likely going to be very useful to me. On the other hand, I too would like a crib sheet that consolidates essence of the changes in one place, as well as doing a book by book analysis.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Emerikol

I didn't realize there were all that many differences in actual rules. A translation sheet would probably be handy. Unlike you, I'm not as fond of DFRPG and will probably stick with the standalone books. I might though as all good GMs do steal any idea I think is better from DFRPG.

There are quite a few and it's really unfortunate that AFAICT there's no guide to all the differences anywhere. But part of the issue isn't the number of changes so much as the fact that many are subtle and easy to miss. For example, eliminating what are essentially 1-point UB perks like Fur and Racial Gifts is a pretty minor change, but it's pretty easy to overlook the fact that the Celestial now has an extra character point that needs to be spent somewhere.

[Emerikol]

I didn't mean to imply my decision for me was the right one for everyone.

One observation. GURPS selling point is one system to rule them all. So to the degree I need to change rules to play a specific genre from the baseline is not best. Now where that threshold is crossed may be far beyond what DFRPG has done.

My take on DFRPG is that it kind of makes a caricature of the other fantasy games I've played over the many years. It seems to imply certain things I don't think are true. At least for me they were not. My games were always far richer than the default they seem to think was the default.

Now. I am also a proponent of the occasional optional rule so I'm not against DFRPG's rule changes to fit a purpose. I'm not saying they changed too much. I am saying that what they limited the game to is not what I think of when I think of a fantasy campaign even when I was using other systems.

Edit:
Also I'm all for a comparison of the rules if anyone has it. I definitely would be interested. I bought DFRPG not knowing exactly what I was getting. I would be open to stealing anything of DFRPG that makes sense.

[Michael Thayne]

Advantages

Before continuing to new professions like the Artificer or Ninja, it occurred to me it might be helpful to make a list of relevant changes to advantages, disadvantages, and skills in DFRPG. It actually caused me to notice some things I'd missed in my posts on DF3 above, which have now been added in edits.

A small handful of advantages in the "Suitable Advantages" list on DF1, pp. 14-15 were dropped in DFRPG: Alcohol Tolerance, Allies, Breath-Holding, Contacts, Musical Ability, No Hangover, Shtick, and Unusual Background. Allies, Breath-Holding, Contacts, and Shticks are all probably fine if a group wants to use them. GMs can also offer Alcohol Tolerance and No Hangover, but only if they actually plan to use the rules for drinking on B439-440. Musical Ability has been replaced by Born Entertainer, a pattern that should probably be followed wherever relevant. Finally, Unusual Backgrounds need to be handled on a case-by-case basis—some traits, like the Swashbuckler's Great Void, already implicitly use an Unusual Background under the hood, but in other cases they could be dropped (like the dropping of the Infernal Gifts perk from the Infernal template).

A few other traits changed in significant ways. Animal Friend now adds to Disguise (Animals), Mimicry (Animal Sounds and Bird Calls), and Born War Leader now adds to Connoisseur (Weapons). Born War Leader also adds to Savoir-Faire simpliciter rather than adding to just one specialty, since the skill no longer requires specialization. And Resistant is now a normal level advantage rather than having the somewhat odd pricing it has in vanilla GURPS.

I'm not aware of any other changes, but I've had to make enough edits to previous posts in this thread that I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something.

EDIT: Cultural Familiarity and Reputation also got dropped. Reputation certainly feels appropriate, if not for starting heroes than as the power-up Reputation (Hero; Everybody; All the Time). GMs might allow more specific reputations but should steer players away from very specific reputations unlikely to come up in practice. If Cultural Familiarity is re-introduced, it should work just like Cultural Adaptability but for narrow monster-types (like goblin-kin or lizardmen).

EDIT 2: Outdoorsman now adds to Disguise (Animals) and Weather Sense.

(Very belated) EDIT 3: Smooth Operator and Social Chameleon got dropped.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Emerikol

I didn't realize there were all that many differences in actual rules. A translation sheet would probably be handy. Unlike you, I'm not as fond of DFRPG and will probably stick with the standalone books. I might though as all good GMs do steal any idea I think is better from DFRPG.

The GURPSwiki has some generalities but not conversions per say:
*Fright Check table in DFRPG is far simpler (seven entries vs 33 in the Basic Set)
*Jumping distance formula is simpler in DFRPG
*Outdoorsman Talent uses the Smooth Talent Cost seen in GURPS Power-Ups 3: Talents rather then that in the Basic Set.
*Resistant to x is both priced and bought differently.
*Slams are far more streamlined in DFRPG then in "regular" GURPS
*Temperature Tolerance is very different.

I've added this thread to the list.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Emerikol

I didn't mean to imply my decision for me was the right one for everyone.

One observation. GURPS selling point is one system to rule them all. So to the degree I need to change rules to play a specific genre from the baseline is not best. Now where that threshold is crossed may be far beyond what DFRPG has done.

My take on DFRPG is that it kind of makes a caricature of the other fantasy games I've played over the many years. It seems to imply certain things I don't think are true. At least for me they were not. My games were always far richer than the default they seem to think was the default.

As a reader of Dragon magazine (I have the CD-ROM of issues #1-#250) I would say the "caricature" aspect bleeds into the Dungeon Fantasy line a bit as well. Heck, just before it got bought out TSR came out with Player's Option: Skills & Powers (1995) where you could "build" classes using a point-based system.

There are things in DF itself that remind me why I begun D&D to GURPS back when GURPS 3e was first coming out (yes that page existed in pen and paper form for about a decade before I first put it on the internet). DF also reminds me why I wrote the cliff notes for what is now GURPS magic systems in D&D back when GURPS Fantasy (1st edition) was new ie 1986-ish.