Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-27-2020, 01:00 PM   #31
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by solidsingularity View Post
I think a possible solution would be dividing accuracy into two numbers the first being the range accuracy a number by which you reduce range penalties when braced or aimed in the second the precision accuracy is a bonus applied to target shots when aimed.
People have proposed dividing Acc into a 'pointability' stat and a 'ballistic stability' stat over the years, but where are you willing to take out complexity to balance the complexity you just added to every single ranged weapon stat and every single gunfight? Game design is like packing for a hike, ounces make pounds and pounds make pain.

GURPS is like Linux, if you want something its easy to write it up yourself, and sometimes other people think it is cool.
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature
Polydamas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2020, 01:44 PM   #32
Rupert
 
Rupert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by solidsingularity View Post
But the fact that the FN Minimi Fires from an open introduces a lot of movement Into the system before the sear is even dropped whereas the 700 is a direct disconnect from the trigger to the sear, that would affect accuracy.
If they both have According to GURPS HT the same cold bore shot potential, then why do snipers not use light machine guns?
It's not as much movement as you might think, and a MINIMI in near-new condition is quite accurate. Also, Acc 5 encompasses a fair range of weapons. A well-made 5.56x45mm machinegun and a mid-range sporting rifle both coming into it seems quite fair to me. Now, if you take your Remington 700 in a calibre known for accuracy and get a smith to clean it up and do some work on it, then it becoming a fine (accurate) weapon with Acc6 is quite reasonable, and it'd be fair for a GM to tell people who want to do that to a mass-produced full-auto only machinegun that they can't.
__________________
Rupert Boleyn

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."

Last edited by Rupert; 08-27-2020 at 01:48 PM.
Rupert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2020, 01:47 PM   #33
Rupert
 
Rupert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by solidsingularity View Post
It seems from this that accuracy is only meant to represent a gun's ability to land shots at range. Which is fine except accuracy also gives you a bonus to make targeted shots at shorter ranges. I think a possible solution would be dividing accuracy into two numbers the first being the range accuracy a number by which you reduce range penalties when braced or aimed in the second the precision accuracy is a bonus applied to target shots when aimed.
Ah, but here's the problem - unless you're shooting at ranges where bullet drop is a major consideration, shooting at a distant target and shooting at a smaller target (like someone's face rather than just 'centre of mass') are effectively the same problem - the target seems smaller.
__________________
Rupert Boleyn

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
Rupert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2020, 03:13 PM   #34
solidsingularity
 
solidsingularity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: New Hampshire
Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Ah, but here's the problem - unless you're shooting at ranges where bullet drop is a major consideration, shooting at a distant target and shooting at a smaller target (like someone's face rather than just 'centre of mass') are effectively the same problem - the target seems smaller.
I agree with this however guns have a practical MoA, 3 MoA gun will consistently hit at a 100 yd or more but it will not group as tightly as 1 MoA gun and be less suitable for precision shooting at any range.
It seems GURPS has chosen not to model this as light machine guns have a higher accuracy so that they can engage targets at range. But rules-wise nothing is stopping a player from using one to make precision shots at shorter ranges. A situation where it went underperform compared to a standard rifle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
The answer has already been given: Specific makes and models of firearms rarely get Accuracy based on measured real-world performance. In almost all cases, Acc is simply assigned based on broad weapon type... Note that all Acc values reflect the weapon's performance in its intended role. Machine guns are comparable to sniper and anti-materiel rifles because they have heavy barrels and (generally) bipods or tripods, allowing them to consistently engage area targets at long ranges.
solidsingularity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2020, 03:30 PM   #35
solidsingularity
 
solidsingularity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: New Hampshire
Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
It's not as much movement as you might think, and a MINIMI in near-new condition is quite accurate. Also, Acc 5 encompasses a fair range of weapons. A well-made 5.56x45mm machinegun and a mid-range sporting rifle both coming into it seems quite fair to me. Now, if you take your Remington 700 in a calibre known for accuracy and get a smith to clean it up and do some work on it, then it becoming a fine (accurate) weapon with Acc6 is quite reasonable, and it'd be fair for a GM to tell people who want to do that to a mass-produced full-auto only machinegun that they can't.
From all accounts that I can find the M249 is a 12 MoA gun whereas a bone stock Remington 700 is a 3 to 1 MoA, this is something that I have personal experience with having done some of my best shooting on one, by no stretch of the imagination am I a good shot but I was able to group at 2 1/2 MoA on a good day.
The M249 inaccuracy is one of the main driving causes of the M 27 IAR.

Last edited by solidsingularity; 08-27-2020 at 03:34 PM.
solidsingularity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2020, 03:33 PM   #36
solidsingularity
 
solidsingularity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: New Hampshire
Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
(Channels safisher) because snipers live in the real world, and GURPS characters live in a game which is simple enough for high-schoolers to play at 2 am.
I get this, And I think that's perfectly fine for GURPS Basic, But GURPS HT Seems to be geared towards making higher TL games more realistic.
solidsingularity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2020, 03:35 PM   #37
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

The only place I got confused was I think HT where it talked about aimed shots always being 'sighted' which makes me think of how innate attacks / mage fireballs also have Acc but don't have obvious 'sights' unless it's using fingers like a sight.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2020, 03:37 PM   #38
solidsingularity
 
solidsingularity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: New Hampshire
Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
People have proposed dividing Acc into a 'pointability' stat and a 'ballistic stability' stat over the years, but where are you willing to take out complexity to balance the complexity you just added to every single ranged weapon stat and every single gunfight? Game design is like packing for a hike, ounces make pounds and pounds make pain.

GURPS is like Linux, if you want something its easy to write it up yourself, and sometimes other people think it is cool.
I get this and it is what I am planning to do I mainly wanted to get a solid baseline understanding of the starting point and philosophy behind the stats as they are listed in GURPS Basic & HT.
solidsingularity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2020, 03:58 PM   #39
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by solidsingularity View Post
I get this and it is what I am planning to do I mainly wanted to get a solid baseline understanding of the starting point and philosophy behind the stats as they are listed in GURPS Basic & HT.
Good luck! I wish GURPS did not have a taboo against footnotes, because there are a lot of designer's notes and basic assumptions and useful alternative rules and supporting evidence scattered in different places or left on the author's hard drive.

Shooters seem to think that the current rules work pretty well for combat shooting which is what they were designed for. GURPS Tactical Shooting adds some variant rules for plinking, competitions, and extreme long-range shooting.
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature
Polydamas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2020, 04:17 PM   #40
solidsingularity
 
solidsingularity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: New Hampshire
Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Good luck! I wish GURPS did not have a taboo against footnotes, because there are a lot of designer's notes and basic assumptions and useful alternative rules and supporting evidence scattered in different places or left on the author's hard drive.

Shooters seem to think that the current rules work pretty well for combat shooting which is what they were designed for. GURPS Tactical Shooting adds some variant rules for plinking, competitions, and extreme long-range shooting.
Thanks, I need to share anything major that I write up.
What it comes down to is I want to play Escape from Tarkov Pen and paper.
solidsingularity is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
gun, guns

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.