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Old 09-16-2019, 07:11 AM   #61
maximara
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Originally Posted by talonthehand View Post
Self Control rolls aren't based on Will.
Had a minor mental hiccup between 3e and 4e: "Obsession -5 to -15 points (...) A Will roll is required any time the character is requested (or forced) to do something that does not further the goal." (Basic Set 3e R pg 241)

So now, in 4e, Self Control rolls aren't based on Will but they were in 3e. Oops. :-)
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Old 09-16-2019, 07:48 AM   #62
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Self-control rolls were one of the big improvements of 4e, as it nixed one of the major munchkin tactics (load up on Strong Will and any disadvantages that allow a Will roll). Concerning IQ 20, just give someone Absent-Minded, Clueless, and Confused (6), and they are the classic genius that cannot do much outside of the field.
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Old 09-16-2019, 08:10 AM   #63
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Self-control rolls were one of the big improvements of 4e, as it nixed one of the major munchkin tactics (load up on Strong Will and any disadvantages that allow a Will roll). Concerning IQ 20, just give someone Absent-Minded, Clueless, and Confused (6), and they are the classic genius that cannot do much outside of the field.
Makes you wonder how much the 3e Who's Who character write ups took the rules into consideration.

For example, what would Einstein's Self-control roll of his 3e Obsession (Unified field theory) [-5] would be? Would you go with the point total as GURPS Update suggests (results in a 12) or should one go with the old will roll and make it (15) and cut the cost by a half ?

Vlad Tepes is another example. Is his IQ 11 to make sure he gives into his Bully and Sadism more then a (12) would suggest or is a (9) for 1.5x cost more appropriate?

Oh, by the way something similar to Self-control did exist in 3.5e; it was called Frequency of Submission (Compendium I pg 9-10) but it was an optional rule.
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Old 09-16-2019, 09:42 AM   #64
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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We have already tossed realism out the window when we brought up comic books characters and Wildcard Skills. .
I brought up comic books only to point out that the 20 limit is intended for that level of "realism".
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Old 09-17-2019, 03:54 AM   #65
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Self-control rolls were one of the big improvements of 4e, as it nixed one of the major munchkin tactics (load up on Strong Will and any disadvantages that allow a Will roll). Concerning IQ 20, just give someone Absent-Minded, Clueless, and Confused (6), and they are the classic genius that cannot do much outside of the field.
I'm not sure making someone with IQ of 20 (and all that would mean for them being great at a massive range of stuff) Absent-Minded, Clueless, and Confused (6) in order to make them only good at one thing is:

1). the most realistic use of IQ20 and those disads

2). the most realistic way to model someone being great in their field

3). even gives you the result you want in game



basically you want someone to be great in a single field, I'd just given them a great score in that field's relevant skill (and good scores in complementary ones)
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Old 09-17-2019, 04:36 AM   #66
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Sorry, I meant in the field. If we are talking about point efficiency though, which is generally the metric by which GURPS measures most characters, a specialist is usually going to be worse off than a generalist. It would be different if skills really did cross multiple attributes...

Let us examine an IQ 10 individual with Physics (VH) IQ+10 [48]. At that level, they are quite skilled, if not terribly brilliant physicists. They will never get a Noble Prize though because they lack the ability to play the academic or research game. While they can do research on 'book learning' (the established literature) in Physics at a default of 18, meaning that they are a good research assistant, they are horrible at teaching classes, writing up grants and research, and at interviewing for jobs. In order to be equally good in all of those areas, they must have Diplomacy-20 [44], Fast-Talk-20 [40], Teaching-20 [40], and Writing-20 [40], for a total of 172 CP.

Let us examine an IQ 20 individual in the same situation. They can sell back four levels of Will and Per, take Absent-Mindedness, and each of the skills at IQ, and they will spend a total of 163 CP. They will spend much less points and be much more effective characters. If you want further amusement, give them Clueless and Appearance (Very Handsome/Beautiful), for a total of 169 CP, to create the stereotypical hot professor who finds herself or himself accidentally in situations with students where they have to use their Diplomacy and Fast-Talk to avoid trouble...
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Old 09-17-2019, 05:10 AM   #67
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Sorry, I meant in the field. If we are talking about point efficiency though, which is generally the metric by which GURPS measures most characters, a specialist is usually going to be worse off than a generalist. It would be different if skills really did cross multiple attributes...

Let us examine an IQ 10 individual with Physics (VH) IQ+10 [48]. At that level, they are quite skilled, if not terribly brilliant physicists. They will never get a Noble Prize though because they lack the ability to play the academic or research game. While they can do research on 'book learning' (the established literature) in Physics at a default of 18, meaning that they are a good research assistant, they are horrible at teaching classes, writing up grants and research, and at interviewing for jobs. In order to be equally good in all of those areas, they must have Diplomacy-20 [44], Fast-Talk-20 [40], Teaching-20 [40], and Writing-20 [40], for a total of 172 CP.

Let us examine an IQ 20 individual in the same situation. They can sell back four levels of Will and Per, take Absent-Mindedness, and each of the skills at IQ, and they will spend a total of 163 CP. They will spend much less points and be much more effective characters. If you want further amusement, give them Clueless and Appearance (Very Handsome/Beautiful), for a total of 169 CP, to create the stereotypical hot professor who finds herself or himself accidentally in situations with students where they have to use their Diplomacy and Fast-Talk to avoid trouble...

Honestly I think CP has nothing to do with real life, it's a game mechanic for roughly equating things to each other.

real life isn't a points buy system

So yeah I get your min maxed IQ20 Nobel prize hopeful is a more efficient way for getting those attributes in abstract, but until the Nobel committee publishes it prerequisites in GURPS terms it's an abstract build not a matter of absolute fact.
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Old 09-17-2019, 09:12 AM   #68
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Honestly I think CP has nothing to do with real life, it's a game mechanic for roughly equating things to each other.

real life isn't a points buy system

So yeah I get your min maxed IQ20 Nobel prize hopeful is more efficient way for getting those attributes in abstract, but until the Nobel committee publishes it prerequisites in GURPS terms it's an abstract build nit a mater of absolute fact
Besides we really don't want to get into the Champions/Hero mindset of players trying to squeeze every possible thing out of a point they can.

A character should based on a concept not on 'how can I manipulate the point totals to make as powerful a character as I can?'

Heck, in the edition of Champions I played back in the 1980s the book itself told you how to manipulate the rules so you got the biggest bang for your points.

Besides as pointed out before most Nobel prize winners didn't do much out of their field. More importantly the outstanding work generally wasn't a case of high IQ but high skill

Never mind in some cases one prize has been given to several people (such as in the case of penicillin)

Regarding GURPS stats for Nobel prizes winners the Who Who's books list several but none of them is IQ 20. I have also included the skill most relevant to the Nobel Prize they got.

Rudyard Kipling: IQ 13; Writing-20 (literature)
Albert Einstein: IQ 15; Physics-22 (physics)
Theodore Roosevelt: IQ 14; Diplomacy-12, Politics-17, Savoir-Faire-16 (peace negotiations)
Sir Winston Churchill: IQ 14; Writing-18 (Literature)
Ernest Miller Hemingway: IQ 13; Writing-19 (Literature)

As you can see from this is wasn't high IQ but rather high skill in the related profession. Teddy is more the interaction of skill rather then just one and he may have used other things to get the peace negotiations to completion that aren't immediately obvious.

Side notes: GURPS Who's Who 1 and 2 are the works I would really like to see an update for.
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Last edited by maximara; 09-17-2019 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 09-17-2019, 12:14 PM   #69
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Mover over as the GURPS wiki the highest stat 3e's Who's Who 1 and 2 gave was an IQ 18 for Leonardo Da Vinci and Sir Isaac Newton and that was likely highballing it a bit.
One problem 3rd Edition had was the lack of 4th Edition's talents. This meant that if you wanted to be a genius in an area larger than a few skills you needed to have a very high IQ. So Isaac Newton was given IQ 18 + Mathematical Ability (3rd Ed), which gave him an IQ of 21 for Maths and Physics etc, and an IQ of 18 for everything else.

In 4th Ed you could represent an IQ of 21 for Maths and Physics etc, with:

IQ 21 + Mathematical talent 0
IQ 20 + Mathematical talent 1
IQ 19 + Mathematical talent 2
IQ 18 + Mathematical talent 3
IQ 17 + Mathematical talent 4
IQ 16 + Mathematical talent 5
IQ 15 + Mathematical talent 6
IQ 14 + Mathematical talent 7
IQ 13 + Mathematical talent 8
IQ 12 + Mathematical talent 9
IQ 11 + Mathematical talent 10
(Power ups Talents has rules for Talents going to 4, 5, 6, or 10 levels)

So how what IQ does Newton need to cover things that aren't covered by Mathematical Ability? Does he really need an 18?

Mathematical Ability: Accounting, Astronomy, Cryptography, Engineer, Finance, Market Analysis, Mathematics, and Physics.
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Old 09-17-2019, 12:22 PM   #70
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Rudyard Kipling: IQ 13; Writing-20 (literature)
Albert Einstein: IQ 15; Physics-22 (physics)
Theodore Roosevelt: IQ 14; Diplomacy-12, Politics-17, Savoir-Faire-16 (peace negotiations)
Sir Winston Churchill: IQ 14; Writing-18 (Literature)
Ernest Miller Hemingway: IQ 13; Writing-19 (Literature)
A 4th ed version of Who's Who would probably give all of those characters varying degrees of talent. And maybe drop some IQ's a bit.
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