At last, my personal equipment house rules

[Stormcro]

I want to thank you very much for this! especially the Oriental section - made my day, this is fantastic! thank you!

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by hcobb

English Longbow: 160 joules

Well, as I said, historical accuracy is not my primary concern. I'm looking for a more cinematic sense of balance between melee and ranged weapons.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Well, as I said, historical accuracy is not my primary concern. I'm looking for a more cinematic sense of balance between melee and ranged weapons.

The cinematic and real world balance is that the fully armored knight shrugs off a hundred arrows then gets taken out by hand held weapons. Long range arrow fire ought to be deadly to anybody not wearing a helmet. (Spoiler: Every hired troop wears a helmet, even the archers.)

I.e. lead the charge at Agincourt all the way to the English line, get wrestled to the ground without serious injury, and live for several years after in captivity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Le_Maingre

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by hcobb

The cinematic and real world balance is that the fully armored knight shrugs off a hundred arrows then gets taken out by hand held weapons. Long range arrow fire ought to be deadly to anybody not wearing a helmet. (Spoiler: Every hired troop wears a helmet, even the archers.)

Actually, the cinematic version I'm going for is more like the Battle of Helm's Deep.

[larsdangly]

Bows are really dangerous weapons. So are spears. And swords. And axes. And halberds. One of the traps of game design aimed at versimilitude is getting so focused on representing the strengths of one technology that the end result is out of balance with respect to all the others. This is a version of the 'magic katana' phenomenon in pop culture: Yes, a sharp katana can cut off a person's head. So can a halberd.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Yes, a sharp katana can cut off a person's head. So can a halberd.

Katana can't cut through a Mail coif and a Bevor will give even a halberd pause.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Bows are really dangerous weapons. So are spears. And swords. And axes. And halberds. One of the traps of game design aimed at versimilitude is getting so focused on representing the strengths of one technology that the end result is out of balance with respect to all the others. This is a version of the 'magic katana' phenomenon in pop culture: Yes, a sharp katana can cut off a person's head. So can a halberd.

This is a critical point... IMO in game design, the relative internal balance between different weapons should be more important than how they might compare in reality. Take bows, for example. While it is probably true that the average arrow will bounce off a target in full plate in the real world, that would be extremely unsatisfying for the guy playing an archer in TFT (especially after he spent the extra XP to get a couple levels of the Missle Weapon talent).

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

This is a critical point... IMO in game design, the relative internal balance between different weapons should be more important than how they might compare in reality. Take bows, for example. While it is probably true that the average arrow will bounce off a target in full plate in the real world, that would be extremely unsatisfying for the guy playing an archer in TFT (especially after he spent the extra XP to get a couple levels of the Missle Weapon talent).

The extraordinary archer is going to take the aimed shot to put an arrow through the visor that was opened to make an observation roll and it will be a major character moment.

[larsdangly]

I would say draw bows vs. armor is one of the things TFT got pretty close to realistic: Base damage of bows is high enough that one arrow hitting an unarmored person is often a substantial immediate injury, and two or three will likely kill you flat out. Proper plate armor (i.e., fine plate in TFT terms) will basically stop draw bow arrows, most of the time and irrespective of draw weight - that is about right. But it is possible an arrow will hit a a gap and cause major injury (2x or 3x damage result). Lighter armors will often stop a short bow but are not enough to prevent penetration by a long bow. You could argue about a point one way or the other in the various bow and armor stats, but in overview it all 'scans' pretty well.

The only things about TFT damage that are just radically out of step with reality are: 1) weapon type has no relationship to armor protection or consequences of injury (i.e., a mace is just a short sword you could throw if you wanted to). And 2) heavy pole weapons (halberd and pole axe) do way too little damage on a normal strike. If you have ever experimented with reproductions of these you understand they can deliver an absolutely astonishingly powerful blow, particularly when compared with a one handed sword or axe.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

I would say draw bows vs. armor is one of the things TFT got pretty close to realistic: Base damage of bows is high enough that one arrow hitting an unarmored person is often a substantial immediate injury, and two or three will likely kill you flat out. Proper plate armor (i.e., fine plate in TFT terms) will basically stop draw bow arrows, most of the time and irrespective of draw weight - that is about right. But it is possible an arrow will hit a a gap and cause major injury (2x or 3x damage result). Lighter armors will often stop a short bow but are not enough to prevent penetration by a long bow. You could argue about a point one way or the other in the various bow and armor stats, but in overview it all 'scans' pretty well.

I agree that bow damage as presented in TFT is realistic, but it isn't very exciting if you are looking to run a more idealized and cinematic fantasy game.