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Old 07-30-2021, 12:27 AM   #51
lugaid
 
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Default Re: Fatigue for Warriors

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
GURPSwise does anyone know the major differences between pistols/rifles? Like is it just the Acc statistic?
Bulk often comes into play.
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Old 07-30-2021, 01:10 PM   #52
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Default Re: Fatigue for Warriors

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Accuracy, range, caliber of rounds (often) and how powerful they are, 2 hands versus 1, accessories (scopes and so on). RoF sometimes comes into it (mostly depending on TL). Ammo capacity, too. Bracing options also come into it.

Yes, for long ranges, a pistol is nothing compared to a rifle (particularly a purpose built sniping rifle).
Caliber/Power seems related to damage more than accuracy.

Rifles seem to have a better Max than Pistols, but I just mean in terms of accuracy within that max...

Like say if I compare the Flintlock Musket, .75 (B279: 100/1500) to the Flintlock Pistol, .51 (B278: 75/450) and am firing either of them at a target which is 300 yards away (B550: -13 to hit)

Pistol has Acc1 and Rifle has Acc2. Both can get the bracing bonus: B364 lets the pistol enjoy it by adding a 2nd hand, while the rifle needs a wall/sandbag

Both also get the extra +1/2 for 2/3 seconds of aiming. The difference is just Acc 3/4 if both are aimed+braced for 3 seconds. If you're doing an All-Out Attack (Ranged) to get another bonus they become even more similar.

B198's Guns is DX/easy regardless of which one... perhaps Pistol should be made DX/average?

Basic-wise there just doesn't seem to be the world of difference I would expect.

Maybe for Acc to have a slightly larger impact, perhaps if using "Aim as a Skill Roll" (pyramid 3/77 from Cole) the Acc could be used as a bonus to the DX-based gun roll one makes to see if one is allowed to add the Acc+1 bonus to one's actual attack roll. It's a small kind of double-dipping but wouldn't upset things too much. Just slightly amplify the difference between Acc1 and Acc2 which doesn't seem very large at all when you're firing at -13 to hit at 300 yards.

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Originally Posted by lugaid View Post
Bulk often comes into play.
That usually works against bulky rifles in doing stuff like Move and Attack (Ranged), I'm trying to think of situations where it would logically outperform a pistol in accuracy.

HT84 has Precision Aiming which gives extra bonus if you go beyond the usual 3 seconds of aim (options for 6/12/24/45/90)

This favors rifles due to "bonus can’t exceed the lower of the bonus from targeting systems (scopes, sights, etc.) and the weapon’s basic Accuracy."

ie the Acc1 pistol can only benefit from 6 seconds of aiming while the Acc2 rifle can benefit from 12 seconds.

This doesn't exactly help in distinguishing their performance at 1/2/3/6 seconds of aiming though... and also you need a sight/scope (B412/HT155) to do this which requires TL5 so I don't think it would help in the musket vs musket situation.

I always figured accuracy (not just caliber/damage) played a role in why troops would be assigned rifles over pistols in war situations of long-range combat, even in the age of muskets.
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Old 07-30-2021, 01:39 PM   #53
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Default Re: Fatigue for Warriors

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
GURPSwise does anyone know the major differences between pistols/rifles? Like is it just the Acc statistic?

I was under the impression that the difference between pistol/rifle for long-range sniping is HUGE. Maybe it's not a big gap in Basic Set but only rifles can use the advanced big-delay snipe rules in High-Tech/Tactical Shooting?
This is discussed some in Tactical Shooting. Acc is the main difference in GURPS terms, but it makes a pretty big difference for sniping situations. First off, the maximum bonus you can get for a mounted scope is equal to Acc. Next, the maximum bonus you can get from Precision Aiming (where you aim for several seconds - possibly several minutes) is similarly equal to Acc. For extreme situations, maximum skill before accounting for range and size cannot exceed a value that is dependent on Acc (IIRC, the equation is 22+2*Acc). Stepping away from Acc, for long-range shots, rifles take less time to reach the target and are thus less affected by target movement, atmospheric conditions (like wind), etc (TS simplifies this all to imposing a modifier to shots equal to 1d-5 per second of travel time, and further simplifies - optionally - for pistol rounds to travel at 300 yards/sec and rifle rounds to travel at 700 yards/sec IIRC).

Putting this all together, if using an Acc 2 pistol vs an Acc 5 rifle against a man-sized (+0) target 500 yards away (-14), you're looking at -
Pistol: Maximum scope is x4 (for +2); maximum bonus from further Aiming is +2; suffers a 1d-5 to hit due to taking more than 1 second but less than 2 to reach the target. Total modifier for terminal aim with a x4 scope is 1d-13, for an average of -9.5; a skill 16 expert who braces the pistol with an extra hand (+1) will hit a man-sized target roughly 21% of the time (average skill 7.5).
Rifle: Maximum scope is x32 (for +5); maximum bonus from further Aiming is +5; no further penalty to hit the target. Total modifier for terminal aim with a x32 scope is +1; a skill 16 expert will hit a man-sized target roughly 98.14% of the time (effective skill 17, limit to 16).

Note also that each combatant is only one step below the maximum skill for their weapon prior to accounting for Range and Size - at best, that pistol in the hands of someone with skill 17+ would average effective skill 8.5, and hit the target ~32% of the time.

EDIT: Note the above is looking at the benefits of rifles over pistols. The obvious benefit of pistols over rifles is Bulk, although that only applies if stuck in Close Combat or if using Move and Attack. The fact the latter are markedly easier to use one-handed is potentially significant as well.
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Old 07-30-2021, 02:09 PM   #54
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Default Re: Fatigue for Warriors

These are sensible differences but still rely on scopes, so there doesn't seem to be a huge difference (just 1 point of Acc) when comparing scopeless pistols to scopeless rifles.

A small benefit you could do (like with magic wands vs magic staff) is start counting the range penalties from the tip of the weapon, but that's only going to shave off an extra yard (might not even offset -1 to hit) so it doesn't seem like enough...

It seems like maybe bracing on a less mobile surface (a wall or sandbag) could be more beneficial than bracing with one's other arm... so maybe we could give bracing more progressive benefits?

IE:

1) +1 acc bracing pistol with outstretched HAND of other arm
2) +2 acc bracing pistol with outstretched ELBOW (only need shoulder stability, not elbow/wrist)
3) +3 acc bracing rifle on an object (tripod/sandbag/wall)

I'm also wondering about the impact of posture and stuff...

Like for example in a lying/prone posture, even if you lack a tripod to stabilize your rifle you can still rest your arms on the ground which might help keep them steady and not shake, particularly if you're spending multiple seconds aiming during which you're holding the weight of your weapon up in the air and maybe fatiguing the shoulder muscles.

This probably could apply to Aiming while Kneeling or Aiming while Sitting (note how in both cases the left tricep rests weight of arm/rifle on the left thigh which would diminish fatigue in left delt/bicep and increase stability)

That said, if we allowed the thigh to count as an "improvised brace" (ie sandbag) it's probably less reliable than using an actual tripod or sandbag (or bag in general) since fatigue in the left calf/quad could cause the thigh to wobble a bit and transmit instability to the aim.

My guess is even if this stuff is below the threshold of traditional Acc we might somehow incorporate it into difficulty modifiers for the On Target system.

Cole gives either a +1 or a +2 to these aiming rolls if you're bracing during an All-Out Aim or a Committed Aim, but maybe if we assume these to be for the "adding a hand to a pistol" situation (the most wobbly of bracing) we could add a x2 multiplier (+2/+4) for using a limb (elbow or thigh) instead of extremity (+2/4) and a x3 modifier (+3/+6) for using an actual external object (tripod/sandbag/rucksack)

Of course this doesn't really help bracing with your standard aim... so what if instead of +0/+1/+2 we made the base benefits +1/+2/+3 for bracing and they became 2/4/6 and 3/6/9 bonuses for limb/object bracing?

As large as that seems, the end result is just to see if you get your Acc bonus so even something like +9 isn't going to actually result in a bonus that huge to the hit roll, it'd just be a much more consistent way to pass that preparatory roll and emphasize the benefits of bracing.
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Old 07-30-2021, 04:03 PM   #55
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Default Re: Fatigue for Warriors

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
GURPSwise does anyone know the major differences between pistols/rifles? Like is it just the Acc statistic?

I was under the impression that the difference between pistol/rifle for long-range sniping is HUGE. Maybe it's not a big gap in Basic Set but only rifles can use the advanced big-delay snipe rules in High-Tech/Tactical Shooting?
They tend to do less damage, and have a lower 1/2D and Max range. They almost always have lower bulk and Acc (but because they can be 'braced' by using both hands, it's not as low as you might expect). They need only one hand to use normally.

The thing is with hit chances and range in GURPS is that even a two point difference, such as that between an Acc2 pistol being aimed and braced and an Acc 5 rifle simply being aimed, gives the same hit chance at about twice the range.

Note that people use scoped pistols for quite long range hunting, so pistols are not fundamentally incapable of long range shooting. Oh, that's another effect of pistols' lower Acc - they can't get full benefit of the more powerful scopes because the maximum bonus from sighting gear is the weapon's base Acc. That means for an Acc 2 pistol a +2 scope (x4 to x7 power) is the best you can get full benefit from. Even an Acc 4 rifle can get full benefit from a x16 target scope.

For very skilled users there's also the absolute cap in Tactical Shooting (box, p.32, "Minute of Angle") - an Acc 2 pistol caps skill at 22 + (2 x 2) = 26, while an Acc 5 rifle caps skill at 22 + (2 x 5) = 32.

For what it's worth, I don't use the Precision Shooting rule that grants extra aim bonuses for extra time, etc., and I've never noticed a lack of accuracy for skilled rifle shooters, nor a problem with pistol shooters seriously competing with rifle shooters and long ranges.

EDIT: Your comparison is between an inaccurate pistol and a terrible longarm. And yes, muskets were that inaccurate - that's why hunters used rifles in most situations. However, even that one point difference is about a 50% increase in range for the same hit chance. It's not insignificant.
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Old 07-30-2021, 04:12 PM   #56
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Default Re: Fatigue for Warriors

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EDIT: Note the above is looking at the benefits of rifles over pistols. The obvious benefit of pistols over rifles is Bulk, although that only applies if stuck in Close Combat or if using Move and Attack. The fact the latter are markedly easier to use one-handed is potentially significant as well.
Bulk also affects concealability, which is a huge reason to use a pistol in real life. It should be in-game as well if the characters are anywhere where open-carry and/or convenience are considerations.
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Old 07-30-2021, 08:17 PM   #57
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Default Re: Fatigue for Warriors

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
there's also the absolute cap in Tactical Shooting (box, p.32, "Minute of Angle") - an Acc 2 pistol caps skill at 22 + (2 x 2) = 26, while an Acc 5 rifle caps skill at 22 + (2 x 5) = 32.
Note that 6 pts of difference on the Speed/Range Table is _10_x the distance.

The main difference in my mind may be the power. You're very seldom sure of dropping a target with a "normal" pistol. With a 9mm FMJ and a 10 HP target you only average 2D+2 or 9 pts. That's a Major Wound but doesn't even reach the Consciousness Check at 0 HP. You'll need to hit the Vitals for 9x3 to get that Consciousness Check and the first Survival Roll.

A 7.62mm NATO wil do 24.5pts of damage even just to the Torso. A Vitals hit is 73.5 pts and that takes that 10 HP target beyond -5x HP for Automatic Death.

To my mind this is the biggest reason why you don't use a pistol when a rifle (or at least a 5D6 auto-carbine) is a viable option.
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Old 07-30-2021, 09:17 PM   #58
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Default Re: Fatigue for Warriors

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The main difference in my mind may be the power. You're very seldom sure of dropping a target with a "normal" pistol. With a 9mm FMJ and a 10 HP target you only average 2D+2 or 9 pts. That's a Major Wound but doesn't even reach the Consciousness Check at 0 HP. You'll need to hit the Vitals for 9x3 to get that Consciousness Check and the first Survival Roll.

A 7.62mm NATO wil do 24.5pts of damage even just to the Torso. A Vitals hit is 73.5 pts and that takes that 10 HP target beyond -5x HP for Automatic Death.

To my mind this is the biggest reason why you don't use a pistol when a rifle (or at least a 5D6 auto-carbine) is a viable option.
Absolutely. Even a slow-firing rifle like a Martini-Henry or a Mosin-Nagant being fired in a character's direction without any aiming, etc. is scary (assuming some pretty serious body armour) because if it does hit that character is in a world of hurt. The 'best' likely outcome is a low-damage hit to a limb because it will 'only' 'cripple' the limb and do minimum major wounding damage.

A character in one of my old campaigns suffered from this. Guard catches the PCs where they shouldn't be and starts waving his rifle around. The PCs mostly don't take it seriously - some mook with a rifle older than his grand-dad. Guard fires, character takes a 7.62x54mmR bullet in the chest and point-blank range and it's game over for them. Bang! You're Dead!
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Old 07-30-2021, 09:40 PM   #59
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Default Re: Fatigue for Warriors

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A character in one of my old campaigns suffered from this. Guard catches the PCs where they shouldn't be and starts waving his rifle around. The PCs mostly don't take it seriously - some mook with a rifle older than his grand-dad. Guard fires, character takes a 7.62x54mmR bullet in the chest and point-blank range and it's game over for them. Bang! You're Dead!
Ouch! And fair enough. They needed a better parry skill to knock the point-blank long-arm out of the way ;-p

But, yeah, big rounds make a massive difference.
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Old 07-31-2021, 01:38 AM   #60
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but because they can be 'braced' by using both hands, it's not as low as you might expect). They need only one hand to use normally.
That's one interesting thing worth discussing too...

HT160 says when you add a shoulder stock to a pistol it's +1 acc, while collapsing a folding stock of a longarm gives -1 acc.

So it seems to assume that if your weapon has a stock that you are using it, and that single point could account for the difference between the Acc1 / Acc2 of pistol/longarm versions of the same weapon design.

But I don't see anything preventing a pistol that has a shoulder stock from still adding the extra hand to get another +1 acc, so maybe we should just give 2H guns that +1 too?
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