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Old 10-27-2009, 12:52 PM   #61
PrinceYyrkoon
 
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Default Re: GURPS Does It The Hard Way!

And actually, I'll say it, the idea that 'scenario books dont sell' is absolute nonsense.

Why is it, for instance that CoC supplements such as Horror on the Orient Express go for £500 on eBay? (Yup, Im a Brit!). Masks of Nyarlathotep is a scenario pack that made Chaosium and Call of Cthulhu. Shadows of Yog Sothoth is still in print after thirty years! Scenarios dont sell? Nonsense.
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:55 PM   #62
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Default Re: GURPS Does It The Hard Way!

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Why not? Those things might not sell but i'd imagine they'd find an audience somewhere. Perhaps this is a problem that could be solved with fans publishing free resources (perhaps to this very forum, which seems to get quite a few "are there GURPS adventures?" questions)
There are a few adventures here. Collective Restraint converted White Plume Mountain. I just Posted A Thundarr adventure (Still needs a bit of work, but I stand by the story), B-Dog wrote an entire outpost a few months back. And thats just the stuff I remember. Its here, you just gotta look for it.

The problem is that people get so specific about how they wnat things, it doesnt always translate well.

I like Dungeon Fantasy..... but WPM?
I like Post Apocalypse Fantasy...but Thundarrr?
I like Fantasy...... but Faeries?

So we share what we can, but that means that SJGames is not going to publish the book you want specifically. It must publish Genre General Adventures and trust the GMs to shoe horn it into their campaigns as it fits.

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Old 10-27-2009, 01:03 PM   #63
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Default Re: GURPS Does It The Hard Way!

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Originally Posted by PrinceYyrkoon View Post
But I could absolutely guarantee healthier sales if settings were supported by scenario packs.
Could you? I mean, seriously? Are you, in fact, someone with sufficient experience in business in general and the game business in particular that you could make a case which would, say, convince a bank to give you a loan on that basis? I appreciate that you're convinced that that's true, but that's a pretty bold statement.

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The idea, also, that Gurps enables people to use supplements meant for other games is really weak.
It's also, I'd note, not one which SJ Games pushes as an important point, or at least not one which appears to have a heavy impact on their publishing strategy. They may say other things to different authors, but in the years I've been dealing with SJ Games, it has never, ever been suggested that I adjust something I'm writing to account for anything from another publisher. Frex, when I was writing Treasure Tables, there was absolutely no concern whatsoever that I make it possible to emulate notable items from any other game.

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I dont know why people say scenarios dont sell.
Because, as has been pointed out ad nauseum, they don't. When SJ Games publishes rule books, they sell well. When they publish adventures, they don't. But...

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Lacklustre ones certainly dont. It just has to be a quality product.
...now we come to what looks like a different argument. Are you dismissing the evidence of poor sales of prior adventures on the grounds that they're not good enough (as, for example, you appear to dismiss the IW setting)? That's arguable, certainly, but it's certainly not "there are no GURPS adventures."
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:06 PM   #64
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Default Re: GURPS Does It The Hard Way!

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But I could absolutely guarantee healthier sales if settings were supported by scenario packs. And I dont mean piddling about with a 10 page freebie, or insisting that the scenario ties in with outmoded adventure ideas such as interdimensional law enforcement. (Theres too much of that in my opinion).
Then put your money where your mouth is. Hire a stable of writers to publish GURPS adventures set in existing worlds. Or give the money to SJGames and ask that they do it. I'm sure they'd be quite willing to do so. I'm sure if you offered Phil Masters, or David L Pulver, or Bill Stoddard, or TBC or RPK an actual paycheck to write adventures, they'd be perfectly happy to do so, even writing what you'd like to play. Me, personally, if I had the money, I'd be asking Bill Stoddard.

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Originally Posted by PrinceYyrkoon View Post
Why is it, for instance that CoC supplements such as Horror on the Orient Express go for £500 on eBay? (Yup, Im a Brit!). Masks of Nyarlathotep is a scenario pack that made Chaosium and Call of Cthulhu. Shadows of Yog Sothoth is still in print after thirty years! Scenarios dont sell? Nonsense.
Yes, but why were there only a hand-full of adventures for MechWarrior? Or how about Star Frontiers? If I remember correctly, I have all the modules for Star Frontiers and that takes up less of a foot print than my Hero 6th edition rule books. Why hasn't Heavy Gear published more than three adventure modules?

Call of Cthulhu is simply an exception. That, and the writing style in their adventures is exceptionally enjoyable to read.
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:06 PM   #65
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Default Re: GURPS Does It The Hard Way!

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Why is it, for instance that CoC supplements such as Horror on the Orient Express go for £500 on eBay?
Collector enthusiasm is not a particularly meaningful indicator of anything. It means that there are at least two people on eBay willing to spend a huge amount, not that there are necessary lots of people willing to spend just enough to buy new books.

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Scenarios dont sell?
Reread this. The contention is that GURPS scenarios don't sell. GURPS is not CoC. It is a different game with a different base of customers and different requirements.
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:24 PM   #66
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Banestorm justified a new edition. why stop there? why not throw some little scenarios on the marked? maybe for free?
The Banestorm book is filled with adventure seeds. Nearly all of the GURPS books are as well.

Don't know if Harkwood is on e23 yet, but it's still readily available in dead tree. I turned that one book into about 18 months of roleplaying (generally 2 Saturdays a month). I'm sure I have an extra copy around here if you want it.

EDIT: Yeah, it's on e23 already: http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG30-6101
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:32 PM   #67
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Default Re: GURPS Does It The Hard Way!

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I'm sure if you offered Phil Masters, or David L Pulver, or Bill Stoddard, or TBC or RPK an actual paycheck to write adventures, they'd be perfectly happy to do so, even writing what you'd like to play.
And we work cheap! If we didn't, we wouldn't be in this business to begin with.

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Me, personally, if I had the money, I'd be asking Bill Stoddard.
...though Bill's gone on record a couple of times saying that he's simply not interested in writing adventures, in the conventional sense. Which may just mean that, for these purposes, he'd be a more expensive word-whore than me.
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:36 PM   #68
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Default Re: GURPS Does It The Hard Way!

Remember that SJG has been in the business for 30 years - longer than a giant like TSR. I think I'll trust SJ's business sense.
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Old 10-27-2009, 02:22 PM   #69
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Because nobody wants to write the stuff you're talking about. The publisher can't conjure this stuff out of nowhere. It needs authors.

(And why not have staff write stuff and put it up for free? Partly because they're a small business operating on a shoestring and they simply can't afford to do much of that. And partly because they've already done that to very little effect. There were a bunch of free Pyramid samples in the old incarnation. The fact that it's the old incarnation should tell you how well that went.)


People are already free to do this on their own, pretty much (that is, write up their own GURPSy stuff and put it up on their own web pages, within certain limits). They've got a pretty liberal on-line policy.


This may be part of the problem: you don't actually know what's available. There are at least two other THS adventures available via e23. At any rate, the point remains that there are things that people are asking for, but there aren't many because people simply aren't buying them. There was also a sizable body of of adventure material, for many genres, in the old Pyramid. But having adventures didn't save Pyramid at the time, and it's not making the current version hit the top of the sales charts either. Again: it's not available because people aren't writing it, and they aren't writing it because, when they do, nobody's buying it.
nobody want to write it. ok, that may be possible. maybe SJG should change their restrictions on format. i downloaded these forms and they are not what i want to spend my time on. free form scenarios, maybe given away for free or next to it. maybe this would trigger some submissions.

i own three issues of pyramid, so i dont know if this is representative. it is a slim magazine. the scenarios are not exactly the kind of thing i am talking about. scenarios i would like to see would be 32 or so page booklets.
and available via e23.. yeah, great. but i wont go into a pdf - real book discusison here.

honestly, what do (potentially new) customers want? yet another world book? there are 150 or so out there. and they all end with a description of some background and a lot of work for the GM.

about the limited time of the staff: if they give away some scenarios for free, it does not have to be top quality material, just some starters, polished up a little.

but the key words of your reply are "on their own". that is what people who want to actually play Gurps are. on their own. and constantly ignoring this fact wont increase sales one bit.
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Old 10-27-2009, 02:29 PM   #70
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Default Re: GURPS Does It The Hard Way!

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Could you? I mean, seriously? Are you, in fact, someone with sufficient experience in business in general and the game business in particular that you could make a case which would, say, convince a bank to give you a loan on that basis?

Well, I wouldnt have said it if I didnt think it were true. And, how do you know I am not experienced in the games business?

Ok, there was a certain amount of overstating in my last post. But, it is exasperating in a way. Wasnt it Einstein who said, 'Madness is doing the same thing twice and expecting different results? You cant just keep on publishing the same kind of stuff and expecting it to do better than the last. All results confirm that such a strategy leads to a gradual decline. (The Games Workshop method!)

You have to try different things. To say blindly, 'scenario supplements dont sell', is nonsense. Its crazy to think that Horror on the Orient Express is an oddity, with just two people willing to shell out big money for it. It commands these prices simply because it is a desirable game aid. And to say that CoC supplements are unique because theyre a good read admits defeat. Its not true, either. People pay good money for Ravenloft scenarios, Dragonlance scenarios, Runequest ones, etc., etc.. I wonder how much Dragonquests Enchanted Wood is worth these days, for instance? (Something Dragonquest is infinitely poorer without, I might add). Or all those TSR modules, (rightly considered classics because of their great gameplay)? If scenario packs dont sell, Paizo must be seriously in debt, ey?

Why cant Gurps have a supplement with a great storyline, classic character NPCs, awesome settings and great handouts? There is no reason. Even given that most SJG writers are freelance. Just commission a book.

I dont buy the idea that Gurps is so far ranging that it is impossible to do scenarios for it. Isnt this what every Gurps GM does all the time? Write scenarios? If a small company such as Pinnacle can do it, why not SJG? Pinnacle had the idea, of course, to farm the licence out. Much to the benefit of Savage Worlds I may say. Why cant this be done with Gurps?
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