Dual-Weapon Attack/Extra-Attack & Order, Feints, Rapid-Strikes, etc

[DAT]

Greetings,
Have a few questions to ask some experienced GURPS folk from a discussion of allowable maneuvers and tactics for a character with Dual-Weapon Attack (DWA) and or Extra-Attack (EA) in a DF setting with Tactical Combat and Martial Arts rules. I’ve checked the FAQs and did a Forum search, but didn’t see answers. I appreciate any answers or insights. Thanks.
-Dan

I. Action Sequence
Case 1: Character with DWA or EA and speed 6.5; Foe without DWA or EA:
If Foe has speed greater than 6.5; Foe acts/attacks first;
If Foe has speed equal to 6.5, Character makes one Attack, Foe Attacks, then Character makes second Attack; and
If Foe has speed less than 6.5, Character makes both Attacks before Foe gets to attack.
Questions -
1) Does this sound correct?
2) Does anyone split attacks if the speeds are close and not only equal? e.g., Split the Character’s attacks if Foe’s speed is 6.25 to 6.5, 6.0 to 6.5, or 6.0 to 6.75?

Case 2: Character with DWA or EA and speed 6.5; Foe with DWA or EA:
If Foe has speed greater than 6.5; Foe makes both attacks first;
If Foe has speed equal to 6.5, Roll off and then winner and loser alternate attacks; and
If Foe has speed less than 6.5, Character makes both Attacks before Foe gets to make both of their attacks.
Questions -
3) Does this sound correct?
4) Does anyone split/alternate attacks if the speeds are close and not only equal? e.g., Split/alternate the Character’s attacks if Foe’s speed is 6.25 to 6.5, 6.0 to 6.5, or 6.0 to 6.75?


II Feints
Case 1: Character with DWA or EA and speed 6.5, Foe without DWA or EA:
Character makes first attack a Feint
Questions -
5) Does the Feint penalty (if any) effect the second attack the character makes?
6) Does the Feint penalty (if any) effect the second attack and the first attack next turn?

Case 2: Character with DWA or EA and speed 6.5; Foe with DWA or EA:
Character and Foe are alternating attacks with the Character first, Character makes first attack a Feint (Defensive)
Questions -
7) Would the Defensive Feint penalty (if any) impact both attacks that turn? Next turn?


III Rapid-Strike
Case 1: Character with DWA or EA and speed 6.5:
Character wants to make his second attack a rapid strike …
Questions -
8) Can the character?

Case 2: Character with DWA or EA and speed 6.5:
Character wants to do a flurry of blows with one attack …
Questions -
9) Can the character?


IV Grip Changes
Case 1: Character with DWA or EA, Grip-Mastery (Axe), and a combo Axe-Pick weapon:
Character wants to shift grips between attacks (first attack axe, second attack pick) …
Questions -
10) Can the character?

Case 2: Character with DWA or EA, Grip-Mastery (Axe), and a combo Axe-Pick weapon:
Character wants to make his second attack a rapid strike, and wants to shift grips between strikes of the rapid strike attacks (first attack axe, second attack pick) …
Questions -
11) Can the character?


V All together
Case: Character with DWA or EA, Grip-Mastery (Axe), a combo Axe-Pick weapon, and speed 6.5:
The character, on his first turn, wants to make his first attack a Feint and his second attack deceptive rapid strikes, and wants to shift grips between strikes of the rapid strike attacks (first attack axe, second attack pick). Assuming his Foe is still up, on his second turn, the character wants to take the All-Out Attack maneuver with his first attack a Defensive Feint and his second attack an All-Out Attack strong …
Questions -
12) Can the character?

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by DAT

Greetings,
Have a few questions to ask some experienced GURPS folk from a discussion of allowable maneuvers and tactics for a character with Dual-Weapon Attack (DWA) and or Extra-Attack (EA) in a DF setting with Tactical Combat and Martial Arts rules. I’ve checked the FAQs and did a Forum search, but didn’t see answers. I appreciate any answers or insights. Thanks.
-Dan

I. Action Sequence

If two people have the same basic speed, you need to determine who gets their turn first. Turns don't happen simultaneously, ever. If someone Waits they'll interrupt someone else's turn, and then you return to where you left off after resolving the Wait.

II Feints

As said in Martial Arts pg. 127, a feint only affects the attacks from one maneuver and will only affect attacks on the next maneuver if the last thing you do on your turn is a feint.

For defensive feints, remembering that turns happen one after another, then it makes sense for a defensive feint to affect all the opponents attacks against you on his next maneuver. If the opponent waited and then attacked you after your defensive feint, then ideally it should affect those attacks instead. That last isn't RAW, but is how I would do it.

III Rapid-Strike

To surmise Martial Arts pg 127 : you cannot do both a Rapid Strike and DWA on the same turn, and you may only do either once. Flurry of Blows is dependent upon you doing Rapid Strike (there isn't a Rapid Strike penalty to reduce otherwise)

IV Grip Changes

This has nothing to do with Grip Mastery (go re-read it), plus the rules for combo weapons say nothing about needing a ready maneuver for switching to the new mode. So he can freely switch between axe and pick anyway (providing it doesn't get stuck).

V All together

I see nothing wrong with it, though I count using a Defensive Feint on an AoA as cheeky, so wait for someone more important to respond.

[SuedodeuS]

I
1) No. You go by highest DX or roll off, and the winner takes his entire turn's worth of actions before the loser acts at all. Your scheme might work as a way of resolving "silmultaneous" attacks, however.
2) I don't think people generally split this in this manner at all.
3/4) As above

II
5) Yes.
6) No. A Feint made on the same turn as an attack only works for attacks on that turn.
7) Difficult to say, as alternating attacks is not the normal case. Normally it lasts until your next turn starts, but with the alternating attacks scheme it might be a bit more complicated.

III
8) Yes, but I think all three attacks suffer the -6. Basically, RS is "get an additional attack by taking -6 on all attacks."
9) I think Flurry of Blows is all-or-nothing - either you attack with everything at full penalty, or you attack with everything at half penalty (and have to dish out some FP). So, no.

IV
10) With DWA, probably not unless you're using a houserule (along the lines of "combination weapons count as two weapons for the purposes of DWA"). With EA/RS, however, he should be able to do so without issue.
11) Combine the answers for 8 and 10. tl;dr version: yes.

V
12) Yes. The Defensive Feint probably shouldn't get any bonus from the All-Out nature of the maneuver, however. This is also likely a foolish choice on the part of the character - he's suffering a penalty on the feint (due to RS) and his foe can make up -4 in penalties with a Telegraphic Attack. This means he is suffering an effective -10 on his Feint attempt. If he has sufficient skill to reliably pull this off, he's probably better off relying on Parry.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by DAT

Greetings,
V All together
Case: Character with DWA or EA, Grip-Mastery (Axe), a combo Axe-Pick weapon, and speed 6.5:
The character, on his first turn, wants to make his first attack a Feint and his second attack deceptive rapid strikes, and wants to shift grips between strikes of the rapid strike attacks (first attack axe, second attack pick). Assuming his Foe is still up, on his second turn, the character wants to take the All-Out Attack maneuver with his first attack a Defensive Feint and his second attack an All-Out Attack strong …
Questions -
12) Can the character?

If the character has EA, he can make the second attack on his first turn a pair of rapid strikes. If he using DWA, he cannot, as DWA is a special case of Rapid Strike and you can't turn two different attacks in Rapid Strikes.

On the second turn, what he is doing is illegal, or at least confused. He makes an All-Out maneuver and chooses to either make a Strong attack or a Double attack. One attack can be split into a Rapid Strike or DWA. Any number of attacks can be turned into feints, offensive or defensive, but making a defensive feint after an All-Out Attack is usually an exercise in futility.

In summary, this would be a legal 2nd turn attack for a guy with Extra Attack 1 and weapons in two hands:

Declare All-Out Attack (Strong). First attack, defensive feint. Second attack (from Extra Attack), split into a dual-weapon attack for +2 damage on each attack.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

I
III
8) Yes, but I think all three attacks suffer the -6. Basically, RS is "get an additional attack by taking -6 on all attacks.".

No the penalty would not effect the attack made with Extra attack. So if you have extra attack you can make the extra attack and rapid strike so you would get three attacks at -0,-6,-6. The -6's are of course halved by weapon master or trained by a master.

Note that outside of DF you would have to make your extra attack attack with something other than what you are rapid striking with, unless you have multistrike.

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

No the penalty would not effect the attack made with Extra attack. So if you have extra attack you can make the extra attack and rapid strike so you would get three attacks at -0,-6,-6. The -6's are of course halved by weapon master or trained by a master.

You are correct. This Kromm-post clears it up for me - my mistake.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

Note that outside of DF you would have to make your extra attack attack with something other than what you are rapid striking with, unless you have multistrike.

I was unaware that Extra Attack had Multistrike by default in DF. Reference?

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

I was unaware that Extra Attack had Multistrike by default in DF. Reference?

In DF it is kind of assumed that EA has multistrike and single skill, because it will almost always be used with only one weapon. This was brought up when DF first came out and that was Kromms ruling for DF.