Steve Jackson Games Forums REALLY Difficult Locks
 Register FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

 07-19-2010, 10:06 PM #1 Nymdok     Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Houston REALLY Difficult Locks EDIT: Final Version Is Here It was asked of me in another thread how Id price exceptionally fine locks in GURPS. I took the 3 points that we have values for (basic, normal and Fine) and interpolated and extrapolated those values. I figured Id post the numbers here and see which ones sounded most reasonable to ya'll. The first column is the Difficulty modifier. Reg is the RAW cost multiplier for a lock of that difficulty. Linear is the cost assuming two straight lines. One from Basic to Average and one from Average on up passing through Fine. Qd is a Quadratic fit using .22(Modifier)^2 - 1.9(Modifier) +5 = Cost. Exp uses an Exponential Fit according to the equation 4.6416*(e)^(-.29 * Modifier) = Cost. After Cost factor 10, these are rounded to the nearest 5. Code: ```+- Reg Line Qd Exp 10 n/a n/a n/a .25 9 n/a n/a n/a .35 8 n/a n/a n/a .45 7 n/a n/a n/a .60 6 n/a n/a n/a .80 5 1 1 1 1 4 n/a 2 1 1.5 3 n/a 3 1 2 2 n/a 3 2 2.5 1 n/a 4 3 3.5 0 5 5 5 5 -1 n/a 8 7 6 -2 n/a 11 10 8 -3 n/a 14 13 10 -4 n/a 17 16 15 -5 20 20 20 20 -6 n/a 23 24 25 -7 n/a 26 29 35 -8 n/a 29 34 45 -9 n/a 32 40 65 -10 n/a 35 46 85 -11 n/a 38 53 115 -12 n/a 41 59 150 -13 n/a 44 67 200 -14 n/a 47 75 270 -15 n/a 50 83 360 -16 n/a 53 92 480 -17 n/a 56 101 640 -18 n/a 59 110 860 -19 n/a 62 121 1145 -20 n/a 65 131 1535``` Going by these numbers (Roughly) Linear 10\$ Gets You a weak lock at only +4 to Pick. 100\$ Gets You a Weak lock at -5, Standard @ +0, or Tough/FS @ +5 1000\$ Standard @ -15, Tough/FS @ -2 10K \$: BS+4, 100K\$ BS -5, BV +2, 1 million BV -9, Depository +2 10 million Depository -9 15 million Depository - 15 Quad 10\$ : Weak +2 100\$: Weak -5, Std 0, T/FS +5 1000\$: STD -10, T/FS -2 10K \$: T/FS -17, BS +2, 100K\$: BS -5, BV +1 1 Mil \$: BV -8, Dep +1 10 Mil\$: Depository -8 30 Mil\$: Depository -17 Exp 1\$: Weak @ +10 10\$: W +3, Std +8 100\$: W -5, Std +0, T/FS +5 1000\$: W -13, Std -8, T/FS -3 10k \$: Std -16, T/FS -10, BS +3, BV +9 100K\$: T/FS -18, BS -5, BV +1, Depository +9 1 Mil \$: BS -13, BV -7, Depository +1 10 Mil\$: BV -15, Depository -7 100 Mil\$: Depository -15 So my questiona are: Which one of these, if any, seems like the most reasonable progression? High Tech lists -5 as Fine. WIth that In mind, Ill take -5 as commercially available to average consumers. -5 : Fine - Highest Commercially avaiable to individual consumer. A wealthy persons Panic Room might qualify. -10 : Custom Built or Very Fine. Highest available to corporate/Buisness. The lock to the server room at IBM or the lock that keeps the Coca-Cola Secret formula. -15 : Governtment Installation, Evil Genius Lair etc. The kind of locks kept at Norad/Pentagon/White House that guard national secrets. Cold war launch codes could be hidden behind these locks. -20: One of a kind, revolutionary or prototype design. Locks of these caliber are normally the thing of value in and of themselves. These are presumably for more cinematic campaigns. Nymdok Last edited by Nymdok; 07-22-2010 at 11:43 PM.
 07-20-2010, 08:55 AM #2 The Colonel     Join Date: Jul 2006 Re: REALLY Difficult Locks Don't we run into the problem that, rather than use really complicated locks, a lot of places use multiple, less complicated locks, usually synchronised and spaced so that no one person can open them? Depending on your campaign the high end locks might be combination rather than pin and lever, or electronic/magical as well. I seem to recall NORAD style places using pad cipher combination locks, but I may be wrong about that...
07-20-2010, 10:17 AM   #3
Nymdok

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Houston
Re: REALLY Difficult Locks

Quote:
 Originally Posted by The Colonel Don't we run into the problem that, rather than use really complicated locks, a lot of places use multiple, less complicated locks, usually synchronised and spaced so that no one person can open them? Depending on your campaign the high end locks might be combination rather than pin and lever, or electronic/magical as well. I seem to recall NORAD style places using pad cipher combination locks, but I may be wrong about that...
I dont know that its a problem. Needing another person to open something is another layer of vulnerability. What if the other person disagrees (The Launchcode Morality popular in 80s movies) to unlock or worse yet, waits till you unlock your valuables and then shoots you.

Im sure that for our current techlevel many of the more sophisticated locks are pad cipher, but this hasnt always been the case.

As to the question of multiple locks, it becomes a time issue at that point. If you locked your house with a dozen diary padlocks, AND someone was inclined to get in with out breakign the locks, it would just lengthen the process without increasing the difficulty of any individual lock.

Some differnt kinds of Locks.

Nymdok

Last edited by Nymdok; 07-20-2010 at 10:25 AM.

07-20-2010, 11:36 AM   #4
Ze'Manel Cunha

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Re: REALLY Difficult Locks

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Nymdok As to the question of multiple locks, it becomes a time issue at that point. If you locked your house with a dozen diary padlocks, AND someone was inclined to get in with out breakign the locks, it would just lengthen the process without increasing the difficulty of any individual lock.
That's really the point though, time.

You seem to be trying to abstract out the final difficulty in sneaking into a facility, having the right passcodes, the right badges along with the time required to being able to open certain items into one single number.

No lock can actually be made lock-proof, a biometric lock just requires a different type of input from a badge lock from a key lock from a combination lock, but a specialized expert can pick through them or bypass them, given enough time.
Not giving a thief that time is where active monitoring comes in and why secure facilities are secure.

On the other hand, you can't equate safecracking with opening a normal lock, safecracking is on a whole different level from normal lockpicking, if a lock goes past a certain point it stops being a lock and becomes a safe...

07-20-2010, 11:45 AM   #5
Nymdok

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Houston
Re: REALLY Difficult Locks

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha You seem to be trying to abstract out the final difficulty in sneaking into a facility, having the right passcodes, the right badges along with the time required to being able to open certain items into one single number. No lock can actually be made lock-proof.... On the other hand, you can't equate safecracking with opening a normal lock...
No, Im only refering to a SINGLE lock and a mechanial one at that.

SOMEONE has to get past the lock sooner or later. WIth that in mind, you could think of a key as a custom made, single application lockpick.

Lockpicking is lockpicking, I dont think there is a familiarity or technique associated with it so I kinda have to. (I dont own action 2 so it could be in there)

Nymdok

07-20-2010, 12:00 PM   #6
roguebfl
Dog of Lysdexics

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Melbourne FL, Formerly Wellington NZ
Re: REALLY Difficult Locks

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha On the other hand, you can't equate safecracking with opening a normal lock, safecracking is on a whole different level from normal lockpicking, if a lock goes past a certain point it stops being a lock and becomes a safe...
As movies like Ocean's 11 is focused around entering it, is probably not a good idea to resolve with one roll 8)
__________________
Rogue the Bronze Firelizard
Gerald Grenier, Jr. Hail Eris!
Rogue's Weyr

 07-20-2010, 03:02 PM #7 sir_pudding Wielder of Smart Pants     Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ventura CA Re: REALLY Difficult Locks I'm not sure that the equipment quality rules are meant to be taken as open ended. Could one use the same system to get Lockpicks that give +15? Or armor that weighs .001% of normal for the same DR? There are practical limits to materials and technology. I think the Equipment quality rules already take that into account. If you want a super advanced lock why not just use one of the next TL? A prototype Fine mechanical lock of TL+1 is -10 to pick for Lockpicking/TL and costs x40.
07-20-2010, 10:34 AM   #8
rosignol

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA
Re: REALLY Difficult Locks

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Nymdok Which one of these, if any, seems like the most reasonable progression?
None of them. As a practical matter, a lock by itself is inferior to a lock with a sentient being standing there to ensure the lock doesn't get picked. The point of the lock is usually to make sure that the person trying to get past it doesn't have enough time to get in before the guards show up... because given enough time, any lock can be picked or bypassed.
__________________
What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.
― William Lamb Melbourne

07-20-2010, 10:38 AM   #9
Anaraxes

Join Date: Sep 2007
Re: REALLY Difficult Locks

Quote:
 just lengthen the process
Isn't that actually the point?

I always liked the fact that the US government approved safes are rated on how long they'll take to be opened. Not if, but when.

07-20-2010, 11:25 AM   #10
Nymdok

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Houston
Re: REALLY Difficult Locks

Quote:
 Originally Posted by rosignol ....given enough time, any lock can be picked or bypassed.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anaraxes Isn't that actually the point?
Not originally, originally I was just noodling over cost, but it IS a good point and we can look at the times.

At -5 : Currently someone who spends 30 (Extra Time BS) hours can (40%) lockpick a safe at default (assuming average quality lockpicks). SKill 15 hits 50% in an hour.

At -10 : 30 hours still needs skill 15 for 50%., Skill 20 gets it (50%) in one hour.

At -15 : Skill 20 Gets it in 15 hours, SKill 25 gets it in an hour.

At -20 : Even Skill 25 needs time to work on it, but can get it in 30 hours. (Clearly an AMAZING lock!). I would assume that someone of skill 25 would also have a SWEET set of lockpicks (+2?) that could reduce the time to 8 hours for 50%, but its not manditory.

Of course, for smaller locks, use minutes instead of hours.

Nymdok

 Tags difficulty, locks, modifiers

 Thread Tools Display Modes Hybrid Mode

 Posting Rules You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Fnords are Off [IMG] code is Off HTML code is Off Forum Rules
 Forum Jump User Control Panel Private Messages Subscriptions Who's Online Search Forums Forums Home Illuminati Headquarters     SJ Games Discussion     Daily Illuminator     Forum Feedback and Help Warehouse 23     Warehouse 23 General Discussion     Warehouse 23 Digital     Pyramid Munchkin     Munchkin 101     Munchkin     Munchkin Collectible Card Game     Other Munchkin Games Roleplaying     Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game         DFRPG Resources     GURPS         GURPS Resources         GURPS Character Assistant     Transhuman Space     Traveller     The Fantasy Trip         The Fantasy Trip: House Rules     In Nomine     Roleplaying in General     Play By Post Board and Card Games     Car Wars         Car Wars Old Editions     Ogre and G.E.V.         Ogre Video Game         Ogre Scenarios     Board and Dice Games     Card Games     Miniatures The Gnomes of Zurich     The Industry     Conventions     Trading Post     Gamer Finder

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:49 AM.

 -- Default Style ---- Classic Forum Colors Contact Us - Steve Jackson Games - Privacy Statement - Top