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Old 07-30-2018, 10:18 AM   #1
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Talents instead of different attributes

The obvious example of this would be fST, ST and Health.
A talent or two that let you specialize in one of the three sub uses of the basic attribute. One could have a talent for Monkey Grip to wield "oversized" weapons compared to your ST, or Endurance to be able to cast more or a Toughness talents that could rival Warrior and Veteran that lets you take more damage but HP instead of Armor.

Speed for DX, where you hit earlier in the turn, but not more accurately. Or ToHit with certain weapons, or just better DX for a talent group (or all talents except weapons).

For IQ it could be something like Educated that lets you grab higher IQ talent paying for this talent first and not having to increase IQ and get better at all things that you roll vs IQ. Maybe even some sort of a meta IQ talent that gives you more talents or cheaper talents. Or the reverse, you get a bonus on IQ rolls, but not a higher IQ that gives you access to higher spells or talents.

I like the trade-off between the three main attributes, but sometimes it could be fun with a low ST tank, or a guy that is fast but rarely hits, or an expert that excels in a few low IQ talents, but don't have the head for higher IQ talents.

Ex.
Toughness (2 points), Your effective ST when taking damage is 3 higher.

This would also put some uncertainty into your enemies. If they swing a Broadsword, they might not have 12 ST. They might have the talent above so they can take 15, or they might be able to wield the Broadsword with a Monkey Grip talent and can only take 10 damage.
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Old 07-31-2018, 02:18 AM   #2
ak_aramis
 
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Location: Alsea, OR
Default Re: Talents instead of different attributes

No offense, but it sounds like a hassle. And a source for disagreements.
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Old 07-31-2018, 03:53 AM   #3
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Talents instead of different attributes

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Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
No offense, but it sounds like a hassle. And a source for disagreements.
Actually, TFT sort of already has something similar to this. Your adjusted DX can fluctuate wildly depending on who you're attacking, whether you're attacking from the side or rear, etc. This affects both your turn order and your accuracy. If your turn to act comes up, you can decide to change targets changing your turn order.

So we already have adjusted DX -- it sounds to me like there would just be two numbers after DX instead of one. One for turn order, one for accuracy. If they're noted on your sheet, I don't think it'll be a source of disagreement.

Also, it doesn't sound like a hassle to me. I like the simplicity of 3 attributes but it does make sense to give them situational improvements.

Rick Smith wrote about this idea and called it "superscripts". You'll see him using notations like fST and mIQ in his posts to refer to these things (fatigue-ST and memory-IQ).

I've also advocated something similar with my two "arcane stamina" talents, by the way, which "increase ST only for spell casting." In my experience as a GM, players don't usually have trouble keeping track of their bonuses and they usually have them written down on their sheets.
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Old 07-31-2018, 08:16 AM   #4
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Talents instead of different attributes

The nearest thing TFT has to this is probably Alertness. It reduces the dice rolled when using the perception aspect of IQ, so it effectively increases the perception aspect, what would be called pIQ if we let Rick Smith loose on the attributes. :-) It might well be worthwhile to add talents that augmented other aspects of attributes. For instance:
  • ST attribute:
    • Brute Strength: roll one less die when breaking down doors, bending bars, pushing wagons, arm wrestling, etc.
    • Burdens: Increase encumbrance limits by 50%.
    • Endurance: Roll one less die for feats of endurance.
    • Advanced weapon talents: could be seen as an example of this.
  • DX attribute:
    • Speed: +4 DX for determining order of attacks, perhaps one less die to dodge a trap, maybe for something else as well. May need to think how this interacts with talents like Acrobatics.
    • Agility: perhaps one less die to dodge a trap, one less die to perform feats of agility. Need to think how this interacts with talents like Acrobatics.
    • Clever Fingers: one less die to do fine dexterity stuff. Have to decide how this interacts with thief talents, perhaps it doesn't exist.
    • Advanced weapon talents: could be seen as an example of this.
    • Missile Weapons: could be seen as an example of this.
  • IQ attribute:
    • Willpower: one less die to resist stuff, not to fall asleep on guard duty, etc.
    • Perception: this is called Alertness.
    • Education: if talents are being purchased separately then this isn't needed, otherwise this is something like Rick's mIQ.
  • MA quasi-attribute:
    • Tactical movement rate aspect: this is called Running.
    • Something about chases?
    • Something about long-distance travel?

Last edited by David Bofinger; 08-01-2018 at 01:03 AM.
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Old 07-31-2018, 08:28 AM   #5
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: Talents instead of different attributes

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
The nearest thing TFT has to this is probably Alertness. It reduces the dice rolled when using the perception aspect of IQ, so it effectively increases the perception aspect, ...
Hi everyone, David.
I really like this idea, but the speed talent is too good. It certainly does not need extra bonuses. People use their weapons all the time, so a talent that gives a DX bonus for weapon use should be expensive and given a very wary look over.

Other than that, I think this is bang on.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 08-01-2018, 01:06 AM   #6
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Talents instead of different attributes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
I really like this idea, but the speed talent is too good.
  1. It is in principle not possible to say whether it is too good, because I didn't give a price.
  2. It is however in practice possible to say that I carelessly left off the words "determining order of" between "for" and "attacks". It's meant to just be a first attack advantage. Oops.
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Old 08-01-2018, 03:41 PM   #7
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Talents instead of different attributes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
No offense, but it sounds like a hassle. And a source for disagreements.
Hassle it might be, but not really a bigger one than the already existing ones like Missile Weapons or Thrown Weapons or all the talents that gives one less die to roll.

Do you have disagreements about those when you play? Are those a hassle?

They were added for this precise reason, so we could have some one that is not equally good at all things DX-related or all things IQ related.

The essence of this is to expand that list of already existing talents to include suggestions for other attributes. If someone wants separate Health as a 4th attribute, we can just say, suggest a talent that gives you 5 extra ST to be used when being exposed, or exhausted or saves against some ST related things. And we should put those talents into the rule book instead of writing a complete write up of a new attribute (which would never happen, but a new talent might).
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Old 08-01-2018, 03:52 PM   #8
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Talents instead of different attributes

Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post

Rick Smith wrote about this idea and called it "superscripts"...
I've also advocated something similar with my two "arcane stamina" talents, by the way, which "increase ST only for spell casting." In my experience as a GM, players don't usually have trouble keeping track of their bonuses and they usually have them written down on their sheets.
I am quite familiar with Rick's superscripts and like them for the most part, but they are extensive add-ons and the superscript are basically treated like extra attributes for the most part. And that is what I'm aiming to avoid.

You don't split DX and call it DX and mwDX, a completely separate attribute or superscript just because it adds +3 to your adjDX under some circumstances. Just like you don't call it aDX for your armored adjDX to make it separate from your saDX when you also have your shield in your hand. Those are just considered common bonuses and some times you jot them down on your character sheet. This would be the same thing.

And it is a very common thing to split up ST into fST, since it kind of exist already with fatigue and wounds. And your suggestion for an arcane stamina talent would be just that. A bonus to ST that can be used sometimes. No actual need to create a new attribute or superscript for it.
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Old 08-01-2018, 04:00 PM   #9
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Talents instead of different attributes

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
The nearest thing TFT has to this is probably Alertness. It reduces the dice rolled when using the perception aspect of IQ, so it effectively increases the perception aspect, what would be called pIQ if we let Rick Smith loose on the attributes. :-) It might well be worthwhile to add talents that augmented other aspects of attributes. For instance:
  • ST attribute:
    • Brute Strength: roll one less die when breaking down doors, bending bars, pushing wagons, arm wrestling, etc.
    • Burdens: Increase encumbrance limits by 50%.
    • Endurance: Roll one less die for feats of endurance.
    • Advanced weapon talents: could be seen as an example of this.
  • DX attribute:
    • Speed: +4 DX for determining order of attacks, perhaps one less die to dodge a trap, maybe for something else as well. May need to think how this interacts with talents like Acrobatics.
    • Agility: perhaps one less die to dodge a trap, one less die to perform feats of agility. Need to think how this interacts with talents like Acrobatics.
    • Clever Fingers: one less die to do fine dexterity stuff. Have to decide how this interacts with thief talents, perhaps it doesn't exist.
    • Advanced weapon talents: could be seen as an example of this.
    • Missile Weapons: could be seen as an example of this.
  • IQ attribute:
    • Willpower: one less die to resist stuff, not to fall asleep on guard duty, etc.
    • Perception: this is called Alertness.
    • Education: if talents are being purchased separately then this isn't needed, otherwise this is something like Rick's mIQ.
  • MA quasi-attribute:
    • Tactical movement rate aspect: this is called Running.
    • Something about chases?
    • Something about long-distance travel?
Well put, this was exactly what I was after. A good clear division of the attributes' area of application into subgroups and give them a talent if they didn't already have them that makes them differ from the basic attribute. And without having to take an extra step and create a bunch of super scripts. It is a Rick Super Script the light version. That might have a bigger chance of being implemented in RAW, since you only add a handful of talents in the missing areas and not much else.
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Old 08-01-2018, 04:24 PM   #10
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Talents instead of different attributes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Hi everyone, David.
I really like this idea, but the speed talent is too good.
Speed isn't that good. You use weapon attacks often, so maybe talent cost should reflect that, but weapon talens over all are cheap compared to their frequent use. Maybe SJ thought that some talent rolls doesn't happen often but when they do, they can change the whole scene in one roll. We already have talents like Missile Weapons that increase attack rolls and speed for reference. I would say that a speed increase that always gives you the first attack would be valued to about 10-20% of your average damage. And that would on average place it in the same category as increasing damage by 1.

My reasoning is this. In a normal fight you kill yourself or an opponent with the same stats on average. Depending on weapon and basic DX that could be on average 4 or 5 attacks. Since all you get from attacking first is usually one extra attack, not one extra attack per turn. So one extra attack, half of the time, because half of the time you would have had higher DX anyways.

So half an attack extra over 5 turns. That is an increase of about 10% on your average damage in the whole combat. But sure, the fight could be shorter, and hitting first can give secondary benefits like knockdowns and such, so setting the speed to always hit first might be worth maybe 15 to 20%.
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