Question about Raising a Skill from Default

[teviet]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

What gives you that idea?

Erotic Art (A) DX+4 [16]
Acrobatics (H) DX-1 [2] from Erotic Art -5
Body Sense (H) DX-4 [0] from Acrobatics -3 (double default)

Then the player puts 4 more points into Erotic Art, but doesn't add any to Acrobatics. Then we would have:

Erotic Art (A) DX+5 [20]
Acrobatics (H) DX-1 [2] from Erotic Art -5 (needs 2 more to raise a level)
Body Sense (H) DX-6 [0] since Acrobatics double-default doesn't apply.

Thus you add points to Erotic Art and your Body Sense default drops. Logically those 2 points in Acrobatics should still be enough for it to be used as a base for Body Sense, even though they're no longer enough to raise it a level.

TeV

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by teviet

Erotic Art (A) DX+4 [16]
Acrobatics (H) DX-1 [2] from Erotic Art -5
Body Sense (H) DX-4 [0] from Acrobatics -3 (double default)

Then the player puts 4 more points into Erotic Art, but doesn't add any to Acrobatics. Then we would have:

Erotic Art (A) DX+5 [20]
Acrobatics (H) DX-1 [2] from Erotic Art -5 (needs 2 more to raise a level)
Body Sense (H) DX-6 [0] since Acrobatics double-default doesn't apply.

Thus you add points to Erotic Art and your Body Sense default drops. Logically those 2 points in Acrobatics should still be enough for it to be used as a base for Body Sense, even though they're no longer enough to raise it a level.

TeV

Ah, no, but I know what you mean, you could choose to the default level of the skill for the tertiary skill is dependent on the skill points spent on the secondary skill, which can be at a lower level than the secondary skill itself.

Which is a bit of a pain calculation wise, and why most people just wave away, and say that as long as you spend 1 point in a default skill, you can now default to it.

Not sure ig the 1 point default is RAW or not though...

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

If you buy it up a level from default it is no longer at default.

Other way around.

-facepalm- Yes that is what I meant. thanks Dave :)

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Ah, no, but I know what you mean, you could choose to the default level of the skill for the tertiary skill is dependent on the skill points spent on the secondary skill, which can be at a lower level than the secondary skill itself.

Which is a bit of a pain calculation wise, and why most people just wave away, and say that as long as you spend 1 point in a default skill, you can now default to it.

Not sure ig the 1 point default is RAW or not though...

Yeah I couldn't find a reference which *annoyed* the heck out of me. So my gut instinct was probably correct.

Ghostdancer

[Kraydak]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

What gives you that idea?

Say the GM rules, foolishly, that to allow a skill C to default from B which is an improved default from A, you need to raise B a full level from its default from A.

Say a character has:
Alchemy: IQ+1 (12 CP)
Chemistry: IQ-1 (improved default from Alchemy-3=IQ-2, 1 CP)
Metallurgy: IQ-6 (Chemistry-5, NO Jeweler or Smith. Default legal because he has raised Chemistry 1 level above the Alchemy default).

Then if he spends 4 more CP on Alchemy it would become:
Alchemy: IQ+2 (16 CP)
Chemistry: IQ-1 (not-improved default from Alchemy-3=IQ-1, 1 CP still spent)
Metallurgy: No double default allowed.

This is silly. Therefore spending any number of CP to improve a skill must allow defaulting, even if those CPs did not raise the skill level.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Yeah I couldn't find a reference which *annoyed* the heck out of me. So my gut instinct was probably correct.

Hmm, going back over things, it looks like by RAW the one point thing without calculation is not allowed, for skills you need to actually do the math, which is probably way more bookkeeping than some people would want.

BTW, going back to your first example we can't do anything with it because Acrobatics does not default from Erotic Art, though Erotic Art defaults to Acrobatics it doesn't go both ways, unlike say Shortsword to Broadsword...

For a better example, Finance(H) is Accounting -4, and Economics (H) is Finance -3, we then have:


Accounting (H) IQ+5 [24] -20
&
Finance (H) IQ+1/(IQ-1) [1] -16/(-14) (raised from Accounting default)
&
Economics (H) IQ-4 [0] -11 (from Finance [1] Default of 14-)


Thing is, as soon as you spend [1] on Economics that brings you to 13-, because with only the [1] spent on Finance means that your trained skill available to be defaulted upon is 14-, even though you are able to use Finance at 16- from its Accounting default.


Let me know if that is clear, or if I should rephrase.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Hmm, going back over things, it looks like by RAW the one point thing without calculation is not allowed, for skills you need to actually do the math, which is probably way more bookkeeping than some people would want.

BTW, going back to your first example we can't do anything with it because Acrobatics does not default from Erotic Art, though Erotic Art defaults to Acrobatics it doesn't go both ways, unlike say Shortsword to Broadsword...

For a better example, Finance(H) is Accounting -4, and Economics (H) is Finance -3, we then have:


Accounting (H) IQ+5 [24] -20
&
Finance (H) IQ+1/(IQ-1) [1] -16/(-14) (raised from Accounting default)
&
Economics (H) IQ-4 [0] -11 (from Finance [1] Default of 14-)


Thing is, as soon as you spend [1] on Economics that brings you to 13-, because with only the [1] spent on Finance means that your trained skill available to be defaulted upon is 14-, even though you are able to use Finance at 16- from its Accounting default.


Let me know if that is clear, or if I should rephrase.

Yeah I guess that does make sense. Thanks again everyone the player is satisfied with the answer.

Ghostdancer

[teviet]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Let me know if that is clear, or if I should rephrase.

I think I get it: Skill B defaults from the actual level of Skill A as long as you've spent points in A. Skill C defaults from the actual level of Skill B provided you've spent enough points in Skill B to raise it at least one level. Otherwise, Skill C defaults from Skill B at the level at which the points invested in B would have been enough to raise it from the previous level.

That is, if B is an DX/Easy skill and you've invested 1 point in it, then its effective level for further defaults is at most DX+1 even if its actual level is higher. If you invest 2 or 3 points in it, then its effective level for further defaults is at most DX+2. If you invest 4 or more points in it, then its effective level is its actual level. Reduce levels by 1, 2, 3 for Average, Hard, Very Hard.

Gah. Is this really what the rules imply?

TeV

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by teviet

I think I get it: Skill B defaults from the actual level of Skill A as long as you've spent points in A. Skill C defaults from the actual level of Skill B provided you've spent enough points in Skill B to raise it at least one level. Otherwise, Skill C defaults from Skill B at the level at which the points invested in B would have been enough to raise it from the previous level.

That is, if B is an DX/Easy skill and you've invested 1 point in it, then its effective level for further defaults is at most DX+1 even if its actual level is higher. If you invest 2 or 3 points in it, then its effective level for further defaults is at most DX+2. If you invest 4 or more points in it, then its effective level is its actual level. Reduce levels by 1, 2, 3 for Average, Hard, Very Hard.

Gah. Is this really what the rules imply?

TeV

Yeah, that's the RAW and why I said some people wouldn't want to do the math and just go with full default for [1].
Think of it like buying a Perk.

That's what GCA will do for you, it will look at the 16- defaulted skill in Finance and automatically give you a 13- in Economics if you have [1] in Finance and if you have [1] in Economics it'll give you a 14-.

This is one of the situations where even though the GCA is in error vs the RAW, it's just easier to go with it.

[Kuroshima]

<house rule>
Personally, I allow defaults to be bought up as a double cost hard technique, and you can default from a default after you've raised the technique by 1 level (costing 4 points). I might even go and make buying from defaults a standard technique, but I fear it might be too cheap. Maybe there's room for a Very Hard technique (3 points for default+1/2 points for each +1 afterwards)?
</house rule>

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

<house rule>
Personally, I allow defaults to be bought up as a double cost hard technique, and you can default from a default after you've raised the technique by 1 level (costing 4 points). I might even go and make buying from defaults a standard technique, but I fear it might be too cheap. Maybe there's room for a Very Hard technique (3 points for default+1/2 points for each +1 afterwards)?
</house rule>

I can see that, though what about requiring a Perk first, and then leave it as a Hard Technique?

So if Finance(H) is Accounting -4 you'd pay for:

Accounting (H) IQ+5 [24] 20-

Perk - Finance as an Accounting (H) Technique [1]

Finance (Accounting) [2] 17-