Question about Raising a Skill from Default

[Christopher R. Rice]

I understand how to raise a skill from Default, but what about raising a skill from Default from a Skill that you raised from Default? Is this permissible? Or did a miss a rule somewhere?

For instance:

Erotic Art-20, Acrobatics-15, Body Sense-12

(Assuming of course that you put 1 point in each of the Raised from Default skills)

Thanks for any who reply! ^_^

Ghostdancer

[David Johnston2]

I don't understand your example, but there's no problem in defaulting from any skill where you have spent enough points to raise it.

[Diomedes]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I understand how to raise a skill from Default, but what about raising a skill from Default from a Skill that you raised from Default? Is this permissible? Or did a miss a rule somewhere?

For instance:

Erotic Art-20, Acrobatics-15, Body Sense-12

(Assuming of course that you put 1 point in each of the Raised from Default skills)

Thanks for any who reply! ^_^

Ghostdancer

Well, in your example, Erotic Art and Body Sense both default to Acrobatics, so at DX 10:

Acrobatics-15 DX+5 [20]
Erotic Art defaults to Acrobatics -5, or 10. That's DX-0, the equivalent of 2 points in Erotic Art. Raising Erotic Art to 20, or DX+10, would normally take 40 points. You get those two points as a discount, so it's only [38].

Body Sense defaults to Acrobatics at -3, so zero points gets you Body Sense-12, DX+3. As a Hard skill, that would normally cost 20 points. You get that level for free.

I don't think your example applies to the situation you describe. You want something where one skill defaults to a second skill which defaults to a third skill. In that case:

Finance IQ/H Economics-3, Merchant-6
Economics IQ/H IQ-6, Finance-3, Merchant-6
Merchant IQ/A IQ-5, Finance-6

IQ 12:

Economics-20 IQ+8 [36]
Finance-16 IQ+4 [1] (from Economics)
Merchant-10 IQ-2 [0] (from Finance)

In this example, 36 points gets Economics-20. This gets you Finance-16 for free, the equivalent of spending 20 points on Finance. The next level would normally cost 24 points, for which you would have a 20-point discount. Since you need 4 points to reach the next level, spending only one doesn't raise your skill, but it does allow you to default skills off of it. Merchant, with a default of IQ-5, goes from 7 to 10 for free. One point would normally get you to IQ-1, and does the same here, since the default isn't enough to help.

[Ultraviolet]

IIRC you can't 'double default'

So if the master skill A gives a default on skill B, and skill B gives a default on skill C - you must spend points on skill B in order to use skill C at default. I donøt know if you can get away with only a single point (which might not mean anything) in skill B or if you need to raise it a full level.
This is how 3rd ed was, and I believe 4th says this as well.

[RobKamm]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

IIRC you can't 'double default'

And it does on B173:

Originally Posted by Basic

Double Defaults
A skill can’t default to another skill known only by default. If Skill A defaults to Skill B-5, and Skill B defaults to IQ-5, does Skill A default to IQ-10? No.

[Kraydak]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

... I donøt know if you can get away with only a single point (which might not mean anything) in skill B or if you need to raise it a full level.
This is how 3rd ed was, and I believe 4th says this as well.

Note that if you need to raise a full level, then it is possible to lose a default, so a single point in B needs to be all that is needed to have C=default(default(A)+X) where X can be 0.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Kraydak

Note that if you need to raise a full level, then it is possible to lose a default

What gives you that idea?

[teviet]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

What gives you that idea?

Erotic Art (A) DX+4 [16]
Acrobatics (H) DX-1 [2] from Erotic Art -5
Body Sense (H) DX-4 [0] from Acrobatics -3 (double default)

Then the player puts 4 more points into Erotic Art, but doesn't add any to Acrobatics. Then we would have:

Erotic Art (A) DX+5 [20]
Acrobatics (H) DX-1 [2] from Erotic Art -5 (needs 2 more to raise a level)
Body Sense (H) DX-6 [0] since Acrobatics double-default doesn't apply.

Thus you add points to Erotic Art and your Body Sense default drops. Logically those 2 points in Acrobatics should still be enough for it to be used as a base for Body Sense, even though they're no longer enough to raise it a level.

TeV

[Kraydak]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

What gives you that idea?

Say the GM rules, foolishly, that to allow a skill C to default from B which is an improved default from A, you need to raise B a full level from its default from A.

Say a character has:
Alchemy: IQ+1 (12 CP)
Chemistry: IQ-1 (improved default from Alchemy-3=IQ-2, 1 CP)
Metallurgy: IQ-6 (Chemistry-5, NO Jeweler or Smith. Default legal because he has raised Chemistry 1 level above the Alchemy default).

Then if he spends 4 more CP on Alchemy it would become:
Alchemy: IQ+2 (16 CP)
Chemistry: IQ-1 (not-improved default from Alchemy-3=IQ-1, 1 CP still spent)
Metallurgy: No double default allowed.

This is silly. Therefore spending any number of CP to improve a skill must allow defaulting, even if those CPs did not raise the skill level.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

IIRC you can't 'double default'

So if the master skill A gives a default on skill B, and skill B gives a default on skill C - you must spend points on skill B in order to use skill C at default. I donøt know if you can get away with only a single point (which might not mean anything) in skill B or if you need to raise it a full level.
This is how 3rd ed was, and I believe 4th says this as well.

Yes I understand all that. But like I was saying, if you put a point in it to get it from default does it still count as a default?

Body Sense defaults to Acrobatics at -3
Acrobatics defaults to Erotic Art at -5
And Erotic Art would be the main skill

So it would look like Erotic Art (A) DX+5 [20]-20
Acrobatics (H) DX-2 [1]-15 (raised from Erotic Art default)
Body Sense (H) DX-2 [1]-12 (raised from Acrobatics Default)

Originally Posted by RobKamm

And it does on B173:

That seems to be for skills in which you have no points, or that's how I read it. I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by Kraydak

Note that if you need to raise a full level, then it is possible to lose a default, so a single point in B needs to be all that is needed to have C=default(default(A)+X) where X can be 0.

Hmmm.

I'm just trying to answer a question a player had that I didnt have a satisfactory answer for, and of course the Game had to be today.

Thanks everyone by the way.

Ghostdancer