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Old 02-10-2009, 12:45 AM   #11
RyanW
 
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Default Re: Alternate Critical Table

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenH
Here is a sample (basically unformatted; some people may recognize certain Rolemaster influences...):

Crushing, Head

3 Foe is instantly killed as head explodes in a shower of gore. All foes make reaction roll at +4. Friends seeing the blow get a +1 to next attack roll.
Oh my god, did you see what that Smurf just did to Goliath?!? :)
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Old 02-10-2009, 03:40 AM   #12
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: Alternate Critical Table

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookman
This thread has a couple of suggestive Krommposts and may be what you are recalling.
Re-reading this thread took me to this post of Kromm's, and suddenly I'm intrigued by the idea he suggests there - creating an enhancement or something that lets you have your own specialized crit table. Can the forum hivemind put our brains to work on this?

Initial thoughts:

It's probably best to stick to the predefined zones, as so:

Code:
3  
4, 5  
6, 7  
8, 9  
10, 11  
12, 13  
14, 15  
16, 17  
18 
Then, we can decide how much it costs to put a special effect in each zone.
Offhand, I'd say that each zone has a "natural value" of sorts - i.e., you can replace a crit effect in a given zone with another effect of similar value without extra cost. 3 and 18 seem equivalent to +200% enhancements. In the standard crit table, both triple damage. That's basically the same as tripling the dice of Innate Attack, which in turn is a +200% enhancement, since each level of Innate Attack costs the same.
The 4-5 and 16-17 zones feel like 100% enhancements. The standard crit table includes both doubling damage, and halving DR at this level. Admittedly, the armor divisor would normally be a +50% enhancement, but it ignores Hardening, which bumps up the cost, and the doubled damage is basically equivalent to +100%, for reasons similar to the example above.
The 6-7 and 14-15 zones feel like +75% enhancements. Doing maximum normal damage is similar to using Partial Dice to add +3 to an Innate Attack, but limiting it so that it always tops out at the maximum damage. I'd eyeball that as a -20% limitation, so applying that to a +90% enhancement changes it to +72%, which we can round to +75%.
The 8-9 and 12-13 bands could be +25%. I don't have many good arguments for this one, it just sort of feels right. :-)
And the 10-11 band would stay the "no result" area, +0%.

Offhand, I'd call having a crit table with effects that were different than the standard, but no more powerful, would be a +20% enhancement, for much the same logic as the Based on Different Ability Score enhancement - even if it's not intrinsically more powerful than the base table, the ability to customize your ability to better synergize with other advantages is still useful.

Now, adding more powerful special effects gets trickier. I think Resistable is a good place to start when pricing this. I think it's safe to assume that someone with a special crit table is going to try to maximize their chance of critting, and try to keep their effective skill at 16, getting a crit on a 6 or better. That's effectively equivalent to an average person failing a roll on a stat+4 roll. Looking at Resistable, we find that that's a -50% limitation. We'll simplify that to halving the value, so that we don't start running into the -80% cap on limitations too fast. That's for an effect that happens any time you get a crit. Effects that happen only on one of the crit table bands should obviously cost less than that. I don't know the probabilities of the various bands coming up offhand - can anyone help out with that? Once we know that, it would just be a matter of applying the relevant Accessibility values to the already-halved values.

So, as a test run, let's build Fordaetha the Ice Mage's special crit table with her Ice Dart power.
We'll make the 3 and 18 results be "Make a HT roll or be frozen into an icy statue". That's essentially the Heart Attack condition, from Affliction. That's normally 300%. However, Fordaetha's switching out the normal triple damage result, so 200% of that is free. The remaining 100% is divided in half for being a crit result. If it comes up on 3 and 18, it's happening about .9% of the time you roll a crit. Powers suggests that something that happens 1-6% of the time is worth -40%. So, the enhancement value for the freezing effect on a crit is 60% of 100%/2, for a final value of +30%.
For the 4-5 and 16-17 zones, we'll have it be "Target takes 1/10th of the attack's damage every turn for 20 turns, as the flesh freezes and breaks". That's basically Cyclic with two 10-second cycles, treating splitting the damage up over the whole cycle as a special effect. Since that's 100%, and that's the value for those bands, that's not an enhancement.
The 6-7 and 14-15 bands will be "Attack explodes into an icy fog that inflicts the same damage to everyone within 3 yards of the target". That's one and a half levels of Area Effect, basically, for 75%, so again it doesn't increase the price, since that's the right value for those bands.
The 8-9 and 12-13 bands will be "The attack scatters lethal shards of ice, dealing 2d of fragmentation damage centered on the target". That's a +30% enhancement. It's 5% over the value of the band, so that's a 2.5% enhancement.
Finally, we'll decide to make all Fordaetha's critical attacks add the Freezing Hazard enhancement. That's +20%, halved for only being on a critical.
So the final enhancement value of Fordaetha's special crit table is +20% (for being a different crit table) +30% (for the 3 and 18 "frozen statue" result) +2.5% (for the fragmentation result on 8-9 and 12-13 bands) +10% (for the general Freezing Hazard), for a final value of +62.5%.

What do people think?
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Old 02-10-2009, 04:31 AM   #13
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Default Re: Alternate Critical Table

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gudiomen
I'm wondering if anyone has any alternate critical hits tables they made. Particularly for melee combat.
A simple "fix" could be to change the 9,10,11 results ("normal damage").
The other critical results are quite nice, only 9-11 is somewhat boring, because players expect more.

So you could say that results 9-11 grant "increased damage, as per All-out Attack (Strong)". It's not a big bonus, but this way every result on the Crit table will be "special".

Or perhaps a slightly more powerful option, "roll damage three times, and choose the best result". Usually the "three rolls" mechanic somehow 'thrills' the PCs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen
So the final enhancement value of Fordaetha's special crit table is +20% (for being a different crit table) +30% (for the 3 and 18 "frozen statue" result) +2.5% (for the fragmentation result on 8-9 and 12-13 bands) +10% (for the general Freezing Hazard), for a final value of +62.5%.

What do people think?
I didn't understand where is that +62,5% applied... what is the base value?
Moreover: enhancers to results 3 and 18 should be VERY cheap. It's very unlikely they come up. If you don't discount them significantly, PCs are MUCH more likely to enhance the 9-11 results. I'd argue that a +1 damage to results 9-11 is more useful than "instant death" on results 3 and 18.
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Old 02-10-2009, 04:54 AM   #14
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Default Re: Alternate Critical Table

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo
I didn't understand where is that +62,5% applied... what is the base value?
I'm proposing +20% as the base value of having a different crit table than the standard one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo
Moreover: enhancers to results 3 and 18 should be VERY cheap. It's very unlikely they come up.
Bear in mind that my system converted what would normally be a +300% enhancement (Heart Attack), into a +30% enhancement. I'd say that's fairly cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo
I'd argue that a +1 damage to results 9-11 is more useful than "instant death" on results 3 and 18.
I wouldn't. I'd definitely consider a 0.09% chance of inflicting instant death more useful than a 10% chance of inflicting one extra point of damage, because the extra hit point of damage will probably make the difference less often. It's nice, and certainly worth the enhancement, but it's not worth more than a chance at just killing something outright, no matter what its hit points are.
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Old 02-10-2009, 09:14 AM   #15
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Default Re: Alternate Critical Table

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Offhand, I'd call having a crit table with effects that were different than the standard, but no more powerful, would be a +20% enhancement, for much the same logic as the Based on Different Ability Score enhancement - even if it's not intrinsically more powerful than the base table, the ability to customize your ability to better synergize with other advantages is still useful.

Now, adding more powerful special effects gets trickier. I think Resistable is a good place to start when pricing this. I think it's safe to assume that someone with a special crit table is going to try to maximize their chance of critting, and try to keep their effective skill at 16, getting a crit on a 6 or better. That's effectively equivalent to an average person failing a roll on a stat+4 roll. Looking at Resistable, we find that that's a -50% limitation. We'll simplify that to halving the value, so that we don't start running into the -80% cap on limitations too fast. That's for an effect that happens any time you get a crit. Effects that happen only on one of the crit table bands should obviously cost less than that. I don't know the probabilities of the various bands coming up offhand - can anyone help out with that? Once we know that, it would just be a matter of applying the relevant Accessibility values to the already-halved values.


What do people think?
I think this is a very interesting idea. Very flexible, and satisfying for the player who is really thinking about their abilities/techniques. It has a lot of potential, and I look forward to seeing where this goes.

Using your methodology, is there anything stopping me from upping the power of the results from the middle of the bell curve? So instead of being "no result" (which always made me feel disappointed), could you bump it up to something equivalent to double damage? Or are you intrinsically limited by the die roll ranges you listed? I see a lot of potential for abuse where the player ups the power of the middle of the bell curve and ignores the edges in order to have a higher proportion of their criticals actually do major damage.
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Old 02-10-2009, 10:22 AM   #16
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Default Re: Alternate Critical Table

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk
My big problem with spending CPs/Fate points has always been the final climax where the big nasty bursts forth and whiffs again and again as the PCs tear him to pieces. This is why I like Luck. X amount of uses per unit time, so you better be sure you need it.
I limit the use of "Drama Points" to two per scene, rather than per unit time (and if characters in the game buy Luck, they can only use it once per scene no matter how long the scene lasts in minutes). This has the same effect.

They get 4 CP per session, and can use them as Drama Points or as experience points.
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Old 02-10-2009, 11:02 AM   #17
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Default Re: Alternate Critical Table

Hm, the 3 rolls option is an interesting perspective. It's less powerful than automatic maximum damage. And it fits well with the idea of "lucky hit". I'm still thinking about a "different, but not better" option for 9,10 and 11... but haven't had any great ideas so far.

Kelly's objective of a custom table meshes well with the thread objectives (which is to get more ideas for alternate critical tables). But the RAW rolls are...

Code:
3 -
4 -
5 -
6 -
7 -
8 -
9,10,11 -
12 -
13,14 -
15 -
16 -
17 -
18 -
Kromm's sword had different roll brackets. Which isn't to say that's not a good thing. Not sure, but the head crit table and others may have different brackets (too lazy to look right now).
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Old 02-10-2009, 09:31 PM   #18
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: Alternate Critical Table

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenH
Using your methodology, is there anything stopping me from upping the power of the results from the middle of the bell curve? So instead of being "no result" (which always made me feel disappointed), could you bump it up to something equivalent to double damage?
You can always put something more powerful than the default in one of the slots, it will just cost you extra as an enhancement. Double damage is effectively a +100% enhancement, so putting it in the 10-11 band, where the default value is 0%, would cost 100%, halved for only applying on a critical, and then further limited if the 10-11 results were the only one it came up on. I think that 10-11 comes up 3/8ths of the time on 3d6, so 37% of the time. I don't have my books to hand right now, but I think that's a -40% Accessibility limitation. So the final value of "double damage on 10-11" would be +30%. Add in the base +20% for having a variant crit table, and you're looking at a +50% enhancement total.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenH
I see a lot of potential for abuse where the player ups the power of the middle of the bell curve and ignores the edges in order to have a higher proportion of their criticals actually do major damage.
That's limited, I tihnk, by the middle values having smaller values to swap things out for, and coming up more often, resulting in them being worth less as an Accessibility limitation.
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Old 02-10-2009, 09:36 PM   #19
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Default Re: Alternate Critical Table

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gudiomen
Kelly's objective of a custom table meshes well with the thread objectives (which is to get more ideas for alternate critical tables). But the RAW rolls are...

Code:
3 -
4 -
5 -
6 -
7 -
8 -
9,10,11 -
12 -
13,14 -
15 -
16 -
17 -
18 -
That's a good point. Actually, I'd say we could probably just assign a default value for every number on the table. I think my percentage values are still pretty close to right, though. Having more numbers really just adds more places to put fun crit results. So the "default value" table would look something like this:

Code:
3 - 200%
4 - 100%
5 - 100%
6 - 75%
7 - 75%
8 - 25%
9 - 25%
10 - 0%
11 - 0%
12 - 25%
13 - 25%
14 - 75%
15 - 75%
16 - 100%
17 - 100%
18 - 200%
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Old 02-11-2009, 05:18 AM   #20
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Default Re: Alternate Critical Table

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen
I wouldn't. I'd definitely consider a 0.09% chance of inflicting instant death more useful than a 10% chance of inflicting one extra point of damage, because the extra hit point of damage will probably make the difference less often. It's nice, and certainly worth the enhancement, but it's not worth more than a chance at just killing something outright, no matter what its hit points are.
In my games, many limbs get (or don't get) crippled by just 1 point.
The ability of killing even a gigantic beings is sometimes useful... I guess the relative usefulness of the two depends on how common Leviathans are in a the campaign.

If the campaign feature more ordinary humans/humanoids, +1 to damage will be more useful. If the typical foes are Chtulu and Godzilla, go for "instant death" :)
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