Navigation, maps and TL

[vicky_molokh]

Greetings, all!

Originally Posted by HT52

An accurate map is considered basic equipment for the
Forward Observer and Navigation skills. Inaccurate maps
give from -1 to -5 for improvised equipment. Having no map
at all gives -10!

Okay, so maps are TL5+, and Navigation is at -10 for no map. So how did cavemen pick find their way back to their camps back at TL0 from an unfamiliar area?

Thanks in advance!

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Greetings, all!


Okay, so maps are TL5+, and Navigation is at -10 for no map. So how did cavemen pick find their way back to their camps back at TL0 from an unfamiliar area?

Thanks in advance!

Area Knowledge seems to be the skill that jumps out at me here.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Okay, so maps are TL5+, and Navigation is at -10 for no map. So how did cavemen pick find their way back to their camps back at TL0 from an unfamiliar area?

Navigation is almost certainly a TL1+ skill. At TL0, you're using Area Knowledge and simply taking the modifiers on p. B176. I'd use the -2 to -4 for going up one or two area classes in this case, since the people in question had to walk through the known area to get there and then through that unknown area, too. I'd also allow bonuses from complementary skills (e.g., Survival or Tracking) and for assistants. And for that matter, Tracking in itself could work . . . that's what "backtracking" is about.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Okay, so maps are TL5+, and Navigation is at -10 for no map.

I don't think "maps" are TL5+. Geographic surveys with grid coordinates are, but ordinary maps can't be.

GURPS Low-Tech p. 45 gives TL0 for the earliest maps and TL1 for scale maps.

Low-Tech pp. 50-52 has the TL0-4 rules for navigation and specifically calls out Area Knowledge instead of Navigation at TL0.

I'm not sure why you are looking in High-Tech for rules about TL0. High-Tech is TL5+, explicitly.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I don't think "maps" are TL5+. Geographic surveys with grid coordinates are, but ordinary maps can't be.

GURPS Low-Tech p. 45 gives TL0 for the earliest maps and TL1 for scale maps.

Low-Tech pp. 50-52 has the TL0-4 rules for navigation and specifically calls out Area Knowledge instead of Navigation at TL0.

I'm not sure why you are looking in High-Tech for rules about TL0. High-Tech is TL5+, explicitly.

Oh, I was making a TL6 character who can go into the wilderness and be as autonomous as possible, and I read the bit on maps (among lots of other stuff in High-Tech), and was saddened to find that not having a map for a given territory would mean I have the nasty -10 modifier that would result in getting lost even with decent Navigation.

I guess I'll have to look at Low-Tech and Companions eventually too.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Oh, I was making a TL6 character who can go into the wilderness and be as autonomous as possible, and I read the bit on maps (among lots of other stuff in High-Tech), and was saddened to find that not having a map for a given territory would mean I have the nasty -10 modifier that would result in getting lost even with decent Navigation.

It probably isn't the Navigation skill to follow trails or recognize landmarks. Navigation seems to be about just compass and map navigation. Other orienteering methods seem to fall under Tracking or Survival. I think.

[shawnhcorey]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Okay, so maps are TL5+, and Navigation is at -10 for no map. So how did cavemen pick find their way back to their camps back at TL0 from an unfamiliar area?

People walk in circles when lost. That means they should, eventually, get back to familiar territory.

Also, people seem to be able to dead reckon their way back but lose this ability if they sleep.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Okay, so maps are TL5+, and Navigation is at -10 for no map. So how did cavemen pick find their way back to their camps back at TL0 from an unfamiliar area?

That's more a problem with the rules for navigation than a problem with the rules for maps; maps that let you reliably go from an arbitrary position to another arbitrary position probably are TL 5, but following a trail, or going from landmark to landmark, is not, and a landmark map is much lower tech (an archeologist friend once showed me a Roman map of the empire. It was basically a link map, showing which cities connected to which cities, and how many days of travel, almost totally disconnected from the actual coordinates of the places).

[trans]

Originally Posted by Anthony

(an archeologist friend once showed me a Roman map of the empire. It was basically a link map, showing which cities connected to which cities, and how many days of travel, almost totally disconnected from the actual coordinates of the places).

Maybe the Tabula Peutingeriana?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by trans

Maybe the Tabula Peutingeriana?

Yeah, that looks familiar.