GURPS 5E?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

The spells would look similar to the way they are now. They'd just be BUILT with Powers for consistency and logic. All of the underlying details would be stipped away. Whenever spells need to be added there's a detailed system that would allow the addition of spells. This is instead of just compare to other spells and guestimate. All the heavy lifting would be done by SJ Games staff.

While part of me prefers Spells as Powers, I don't think it should be required that all magic be like that. Of course, if we got Advantages rebalanced in the process, I might change my tune (for example No Smell is a relatively-minor spell in College Magic, but in Sorcery it's rather expensive - because Obscure: Smell is priced the same as Obscure: Vision, so not having a scent is the same price as being outright invisible).

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

Agreed. One thing I find frustrating is skills like Traps-N where you can't just use the skill as written. Say you have Traps-16. You don't always roll verses Traps-16 based on IQ. It is really IQ based to set a trap, Per based for finding traps, and DX based to disarm a trap. So it really should be written something like Traps [IQ/Per/DX]-16/13/12. As much as possible things should be done at character creation time and adjusted when Experience points are awarded/spent. Remove as much memorization and look up as possible. That way game play is streamlined and sped up.

On the one hand, that is indeed useful to have them all written out like that for quick reference. On the other hand, I fear that could end up making things unwieldy and/or scaring off potential new players, if many skills have two or three entries depending on how they are used. Personally, I feel "This is the typical use, but the GM may call for you to float to another attribute for some uses" should work out alright. Of course, checking the entry for Traps in Characters, it looks like you would use IQ for disarming, just as you use IQ for Lockpicking - although I could see a GM calling for a DX-based roll for a particularly finicky mechanism, just like for locks. Although I think DF makes Lockpicking typically DX-based, in which case disarming traps probably would be as well. This does make Traps a bit of an oddity, in that it calls for different attributes for different key uses; most skills use one attribute for the bulk of their uses, and different ones from time to time for less-common uses.

[Isosceles]

Originally Posted by Infornific

.
To compare, Chaosium has the Basic Roleplaying system and even has the Big Gold Book to use as a tool kit. But you don't need it to play Runequest or Call of Cthulu. If you look at Hero Games, Champions Complete & Fantasy Hero Complete sell better than the underlying toolkit books for Hero System 6th edition, at least at DriveThruRpg. Most people don't have the time to plow through a few hundred pages of rules. And don't tell me anything about llteracy standards dropping. Look at rulebooks from the 1980s and they tend to be much slimmer.

I think a rule that seems more evident in the current environment is that if you want your "generic" game to succeed you should write hit RPGs that happens to use it. Even when Champions was the go to supers game in the heyday, HERO really supported it with a universe, organization books, adventures, NPC books. It wasn't just a one off book, and expect everyone to roll your own Supers game.

I presume that the FFG Star Wars games are much more successful sellers than the Genesys game underlying it. Modiphius and Fria Ligan for all intents and purposes are using generic systems that they are tweaking in each release for different settings. I don't think they've come out with generic system releases, but I wouldn't be surprised if they released SRDs so people could hack their own settings into those house systems.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

All the heavy lifting would be done by SJ Games staff.

What SJGames staff? If Kromm doesn't have time/energy to edit VDS Powers engineering 800 spells and then burying the details isn't going to go any higher on his list.

You'd have to regularize the Powers system first anyway. It's got a lot of oddities buried in it now.

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

What SJGames staff? If Kromm doesn't have time/energy to edit VDS Powers engineering 800 spells and then burying the details isn't going to go any higher on his list.

You'd have to regularize the Powers system first anyway. It's got a lot of oddities buried in it now.

I don't disagree, but that's what I think needs to be done if you want to go to GURPS 5E. Hence, I don't think it will happen. Only if SJ Games were acquired by a larger company interested in such an undertaking would that occur. Not impossibe, but highly implausible. I don't see it happening. I think it doesn't occur until way in the future. Maybe when we'll be routinely playing TT games on electronic or holo-map boards.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

Say you have Traps-16. You don't always roll verses Traps-16 based on IQ. It is really IQ based to set a trap, Per based for finding traps, and DX based to disarm a trap. So it really should be written something like Traps [IQ/Per/DX]-16/13/12.

Try noting the skill level as Traps +4 (same as on the skill price charts) and then adding the relevant stat as required. Given that most skills don't float often, you might list the primary total, perhaps something like Traps(IQ) +0 = 12. Then when the GM says "gimme a DX-based Traps roll", you add the +0 to your DX 16. Just note "Traps +0" if you feel like you can remember the usual base stat.

(Yes, all of the possible values for other attributes aren't all pre-calculated, but the mental load of a single-digit addition might be less than looking at the string of skills and trying to figure out / remember which number goes with which stat. If you list only some of the possibilities -- no ST, HT, or Will based Traps rolls, ever? -- or just want to list only a couple of primary uses without a standard order of all stats to memorize, then you have to note which stat goes with which number. Might be simpler just to note the offset.)

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Rolando

If you make GURPS into a few starter games, each one in a differnet setting or genre it will no longer be Generic, nor Universal.

Normally I'd agree with you but...

This is exactly what the Powered By GURPS line is about. Separate worldbooks that have rather different setups, thus different options turned on and packaged as self-contained systems. AS long as the Basic Set remains the Basic Set and the Powered By line is seperate, it should work fine.

Now I completely disagree with hiding the math behind the curtains, but that's my preference. It's why I prefer the general DF line (which doesn't hide the math) to the DFRPG set.

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

Agreed. One thing I find frustrating is skills like Traps-N where you can't just use the skill as written. Say you have Traps-16. You don't always roll verses Traps-16 based on IQ. It is really IQ based to set a trap, Per based for finding traps, and DX based to disarm a trap. So it really should be written something like Traps [IQ/Per/DX]-16/13/12.

No, write it as Traps (Spot)-13, Traps-(Disarm) 12, and Traps (Set)-16. Or as I literally write it on my Player's sheets:

(This Character had an IQ and Per of 15, DX of 10.)

EXP	Skills		Skill Lvl	Bonus	ATT Lvl	ATT/Diff	Default	Bonus From
2	Traps
-	   Spot		15		-	ATT-0	Per/A		Per-5	-	
-	   Disarm	10		-	ATT-0	DX/A		DX-5	-
-	   Set		15		-	ATT-0	IQ/A		IQ-5	-

Not a single GURPS newb has had trouble understanding it, once they understood they could safely ignore everything but Skills and Skill Lvl.


I put the rest of the info on there for my ease of use, so if say another PC wants to search for traps*, I can ask the PC who actually has the Trap skill what the default is for Spotting, and they can tell the other PC, I don't need to go looking it up. Or if I decide the skill needs to float I can tell them to apply the ATT Lvl to whatever Attribute the skill is floating to. Or if some bonuses won't apply (or might apply more prominently or whatever), I can check my copy of their sheet and mentally lower (or raise or whatever) their MoS/F (Margin of Success/Failure).


* Though, depending on the genre, they probably actually already have Traps in their skill list at default, as I consider that and several other skills "Everyman Default Skills", in other woirds I expect PCs who aren't skilled in these skills to need to roll against them at some point, so may as well have then figured out in advance for them.

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by Rolando

If you make GURPS into a few starter games, each one in a differnet setting or genre it will no longer be Generic, nor Universal.

For it to be GURPS it must be like it is right now, able to handle different genres and eras.

It may have separate introductory books like dungeon fantasy, but even dungeon fantasy rpg is not exactly GURPS.

Except that's not how the other early generic games worked.

Basic Roleplaying began as Runequest followed by Call of Cthulu. Then came the likes of Superworld, Stormbringer/Elric, Elfquest, Ring World, etc. There was a 16 page booklet called Basic Roleplaying that was the lite version of the rules, plus the Worlds of Wonder boxed set but otherwise the system has largely functioned as the engine for numerous self contained games.

Hero System was similar. Champions was followed by Fantasy Hero, Star Hero, Justice Inc, Danger International and others but it wasn't until 1990 that a core generic rulebook came out.

In both cases, everyone recognized it was a generic system. Maybe self contained games is a bridge too far. If that's the case, I'd go with Acrosome's suggestion and have a stripped down core book - under 200 pages covering the basic concepts - and then have further Advantages/Skills/rules in the various genre books as needed. Maybe add an Advanced GURPS book for the hard core tool kit types. You wouldn't even need to go full 5e for this.

As a side note, I'd recommend keeping the bulk of how Powers work "under the hood" as with the DFRPG and save the gory details for the designer's notes and the Powers book.

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

What SJGames staff? If Kromm doesn't have time/energy to edit VDS Powers engineering 800 spells and then burying the details isn't going to go any higher on his list.

You'd have to regularize the Powers system first anyway. It's got a lot of oddities buried in it now.

I appreciate the limitations of SJGames resources, but I don't think you'd want or need to duplicate all 800 or so spells. A lot of those are duplicative themselves and if using Powers you'd probably go with a much shorter list.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Infornific

I appreciate the limitations of SJGames resources, but I don't think you'd want or need to duplicate all 800 or so spells. A lot of those are duplicative themselves and if using Powers you'd probably go with a much shorter list.

A Magic-as-Powers _system _ has been a shining city on a hill, gleaming in the distance for coming on 20 years and not only has SJGames not had the resources to create it no one else has either in any unofficial form.

Sure, there have been isolated characters with magic powers but I've never even heard claims of a systemic treatment of all of the magic effects seen in a typical fantasy game.

Not in Gurps anyway. The concept is/was known to Fantasy Hero and they even published a couple of "Grimoires" and sem settings several years ago and I gave them a try. Even with a somewhat simpler and cleaner system to work with than Gurps Powers it was just too complex and awkward to work very well.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

A Magic-as-Powers _system _ has been a shining city on a hill, gleaming in the distance for coming on 20 years and not only has SJGames not had the resources to create it no one else has either in any unofficial form.

Eggplant has converted a lot of D&D spells to Sorcery.