Moving from d20 to GURPS

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

And finally, Mailanka's rationale for filing the serial numbers off the source material: "Psi Wars: Don't Convert, Create!"

I like Mailanka's explanation of how Star Wars is not a rational, logically consistent setting. Thanks for giving the link to their site! I remembered there was a fan stat-wars-inspired space opera, but I did not want to say without some way of finding it.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I like Mailanka's explanation of how Star Wars is not a rational, logically consistent setting. Thanks for giving the link to their site! I remembered there was a fan stat-wars-inspired space opera, but I did not want to say without some way of finding it.

It is hard to tell if the piece if being tongue in cheek or clueless.

"In A New Hope, Obi-Wan Kenobi comments on how "only Stormtroopers are so precise," yet we see them regularly missing the heroes, to the point where a GURPS optional rule (The Imperial Stormtrooper's Academy of Marksmanship) was named after them. "

Actually it is mentioned that their escape was "too easy" resulting in Han being sarcastic. If you actually think about it the escape and poor shooting were likely planned.

"We see them wear armor, but some little teddy-bear aliens were able to penetrate that armor with sticks and stones. How competent is a stormtrooper? What is the point of his armor?"

I guess the author never heard of Vietnam (which is what inspired the battle) or the three legions the Romans lost in Teutoburg Forest.

Both are actual historical examples of highly trained soldiers of arguable the most powerful nation/empire of the time being unable to win.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by maximara

"We see them wear armor, but some little teddy-bear aliens were able to penetrate that armor with sticks and stones. How competent is a stormtrooper? What is the point of his armor?"

I guess the author never heard of Vietnam (which is what inspired the battle) or the three legions the Romans lost in Teutoburg Forest.

Both are actual historical examples of highly trained soldiers of arguable the most powerful nation/empire of the time being unable to win.

Yes, but the reasons that the stormtoopers lost at Endor were very different from the reasons that the US was unable to effectively win in Vietnam, so that does not apply to in-setting (Watsonian) discussion (or to discussion of role-playing games in the setting), only to discussion of out-of-setting (Doylist) metaphor choices.

[RGTraynor]

Well ... look. What were some of the reasons commonly cited for the US losing in Vietnam?

Indifference/hostility/dissension on the home front. Stifling rules of engagement. Financial strains on the nation. Unreliable allies. Inability/unwillingness to use as much force as was possible. Intraservice rivalries. The arrogance of power. Badly underestimating the enemy's potential. Poor intelligence about the enemy's positions and capabilities. Wonder weapons that don't work nearly as well as advertised. Combats taking place in the enemy's backyard, and far away from one's own bases and supply centers. High tech equipment needing high level and expensive maintenance. Division within the leadership. Dissension and disorganization within the military's ranks. A strongly motivated enemy with a strong ideology. Obsession with simple, one-punch solutions.

Now: how many of the above not only could pertain to the Star Wars canon, but are explicitly the case? Just about all of the above.

Underestimating the indigs has likely been going on since Ugo the Caveman jeered to his tribesmen about the Other Guys approaching with those flimsy looking curved sticks with the string tied between the ends, and laughed that the morons wouldn't stand up to good stone axes for more than a minute.

[JulianLW]

So ... y'all reckon the 1978 Star Wars Holiday Special was also inspired by losing the war in Vietnam?

[maximara]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

So ... y'all reckon the 1978 Star Wars Holiday Special was also inspired by losing the war in Vietnam?

Only if the 1978 Star Wars Holiday Special was somebody's PTSD flashback while on LSD. Actually that might have made more sense.

There were other movies so bad (as in dull) that they has been memory holed by may a Star Wars fan: The Ewok Adventure and Ewoks: The Battle for Endor :-)

Though you know it is bad when people think putting George "Jar Jar Binks" Lucas back in charge is the only way Star Wars can get out of the fan tail spin it seems to be in ;-)

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by maximara

Though you know it is bad when people think putting George "Jar Jar Binks" Lucas back in charge is the only way Star Wars can get out of the fan tail spin it seems to be in ;-)

The tailspin probably ended (at least temporarily) with The Mandalorian.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The tailspin probably ended (at least temporarily) with The Mandalorian.

Star Wars has been a bad movie/good TV franchise for quite a while.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

Well ... look. What were some of the reasons commonly cited for the US losing in Vietnam?

<SNIP>

Like I said, it fits as an out-of-setting metaphor, but in in-setting practical terms (or game mechanics), Vietnam was two cultures with fairly close technology (US at TL7, Vietnam with a mix of TL6 & 7 tech plus whatever they could get ahold of) in a long war, while Endor was a TL10^ (or 7+3, or something like that) force being seriously damaged by a TL(0+hangliders)^ force with some help from a small TL10^ strike team, in one battle (plus a space battle, a duel, and an assassination, without which the ground battle would have been a delayed slaughter at best).

Again, I'm not arguing about the metaphor, I'm arguing that using it the way maximara was is not a good answer to the statement he was responding to.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

Like I said, it fits as an out-of-setting metaphor, but in in-setting practical terms (or game mechanics), Vietnam was two cultures with fairly close technology (US at TL7, Vietnam with a mix of TL6 & 7 tech plus whatever they could get ahold of) in a long war, while Endor was a TL10^ (or 7+3, or something like that) force being seriously damaged by a TL(0+hangliders)^ force with some help from a small TL10^ strike team, in one battle (plus a space battle, a duel, and an assassination, without which the ground battle would have been a delayed slaughter at best).

Again, I'm not arguing about the metaphor, I'm arguing that using it the way maximara was is not a good answer to the statement he was responding to.

See The Brutal Experiences of Stormtroopers during the Battle of Endor | Star Wars for how some of it actually makes sense.

Never mind the idea technologically superior foes getting their heads handed to them because of poor planning or arrogance has been around in fiction at least since H. G. Wells' War of the Worlds (1897)

Heck, there is even a real world example of a TL 0-1/5 group winning against a TL 5-6 one: Battle of Isandlwana (22 January 1879).

In the long run the higher TL would win but in Endor there is no long run. It was a battle for "all the marbles" (protecting the second Death Star and wiping out of the Rebel faction). The Empire thought they held all the cards and got arrogant...and like the British at Isandlwana got their heads handed to them.

Besides if you want to talk about logic try and explain the nonsense that was The Rise of Skywalker. To paraphrase Yahtzee 'It's like every character, but the main one, put their retard hats on that morning by mistake'