Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-05-2020, 06:18 AM   #1
TheOneRonin
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Default Effect Timing: Rapid Strike/AoA Double vs Knockdown/Stunning

In most cases, it's pretty clear how the timing works between attacks, injury, and injury effects. A attacks and hits B. B fails to defend. A rolls damage. B loses HP = Damage - DR. Check for Knockdown/Stun, etc.

But what does the timing look like when a PC declares a Rapid Strike, an AoA Double, or has Extra Attack?

Do you resolve each attack (including checking for knockdown/stun) before resolving the next one? Or do you resolve the knockdown/stun roll only after you have resolved both attacks?

For example, lets say that Boxer PC gets in a bar fight with an NPC. Boxer PC declares he is going to do a rapid strike and throw two punches at the NPC's face. If you resolve the attacks and effects independently, it's possible that the NPC may end up falling prone after the first punch. How would that effect the follow-up punch? Does it just miss because the target is no longer there? Do you require the PC to make the second attack with additional penalties because he is standing and trying to punch a prone foe?

My inclination is that for closely groups attacks (i.e. Rapid Strikes, AoA Double, Extra Attack, Rapid Fire from guns, etc.), you should resolve the hits and damage for all attacks first, then resolve Knockdown/Stunning after, but I can't find any specific rules or guidelines for this in the Basic Set.

If there aren't any, how have you handled this in your games, and has your approach to that colored how your PCs use multi-attack options?
TheOneRonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2020, 07:55 AM   #2
johndallman
Night Watchman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: Effect Timing: Rapid Strike/AoA Double vs Knockdown/Stunning

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
Do you resolve each attack (including checking for knockdown/stun) before resolving the next one? Or do you resolve the knockdown/stun roll only after you have resolved both attacks?
I'd do whatever makes most sense in the circumstances, for the reality that we're modelling with GURPS rules. The fact that there is an underlying reality that we're only approximating is the key thing to me; the approach of abandoning that, and simply using whatever result the game rules give you, seems to me to be missing the point of a game run by a GM. You might as well be playing a board game.
Quote:
For example, lets say that Boxer PC gets in a bar fight with an NPC. Boxer PC declares he is going to do a rapid strike and throw two punches at the NPC's face. If you resolve the attacks and effects independently, it's possible that the NPC may end up falling prone after the first punch. How would that effect the follow-up punch? Does it just miss because the target is no longer there? Do you require the PC to make the second attack with additional penalties because he is standing and trying to punch a prone foe?
That depends on the conditions. Under normal circumstances, I'd resolve the first attack and its effects, and then ask the player what they wanted to do about the second attack. They can just not make it if they like, they can try the second punch at an additional penalty because the opponent is engaged in collapsing, or if they wanted to do something else, I'd see how plausible it seemed.
johndallman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2020, 09:01 AM   #3
Say, it isn't that bad!
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Default Re: Effect Timing: Rapid Strike/AoA Double vs Knockdown/Stunning

I've done sparring; the majority of it many years ago, but it sticks with you.

At no point did I ever attempt to punch someone who wasn't there anymore.

To go further into it, one part of you is thinking of overall strategy (for example, "back this guy into a corner"), and your reflexes are implementing that strategy through tactical choices.

Your reflexes can withdraw your hand from a source of heat before your conscious mind registers the heat (please do not test this). You're not going to punch someone who's not there. :)
Say, it isn't that bad! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2020, 09:33 AM   #4
TheOneRonin
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Default Re: Effect Timing: Rapid Strike/AoA Double vs Knockdown/Stunning

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
I'd do whatever makes most sense in the circumstances, for the reality that we're modelling with GURPS rules. The fact that there is an underlying reality that we're only approximating is the key thing to me; the approach of abandoning that, and simply using whatever result the game rules give you, seems to me to be missing the point of a game run by a GM. You might as well be playing a board game.
Thanks for the quick reply, John. I've been handling this much like you mentioned above, on a case by case basis. I was predominantly curious as to whether or not there is an explicit process spelled out in the rules. As a GM, I can and have made adjustments to mechanics on the fly to best fit the narrative of the game. But RAW provides some insight into how the creators see the game working, so I always like to know what that is before I decide on whether or not I want to change things.


Quote:
That depends on the conditions. Under normal circumstances, I'd resolve the first attack and its effects, and then ask the player what they wanted to do about the second attack. They can just not make it if they like, they can try the second punch at an additional penalty because the opponent is engaged in collapsing, or if they wanted to do something else, I'd see how plausible it seemed.
Fair enough. That approach would make more sense to me if a PC declared he wishes to AoA Double, attempting a Sweep or Judo Throw with the first attack and then a Stamp Kick (or some similar combo) for the second.

Do you find you need to explain this approach to your players ahead of time, or do they just assume the sequence is "Attack 1 -> Effect -> Attack 2 -> Effect -> Etc"?
TheOneRonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2020, 09:41 AM   #5
TheOneRonin
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Default Re: Effect Timing: Rapid Strike/AoA Double vs Knockdown/Stunning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad! View Post
I've done sparring; the majority of it many years ago, but it sticks with you.

At no point did I ever attempt to punch someone who wasn't there anymore.

To go further into it, one part of you is thinking of overall strategy (for example, "back this guy into a corner"), and your reflexes are implementing that strategy through tactical choices.

Your reflexes can withdraw your hand from a source of heat before your conscious mind registers the heat (please do not test this). You're not going to punch someone who's not there. :)
Maybe.

I've done my fair share of sparring too (long time JKD/Modern Arnis practitioner), and more than once I've launched a combination attack where my opponent was in range for the first attack and out of range for the 2nd. In my experience, it's more about the timing between the first attack and the second. If you are attacking on single beats (rhythm, not the GURPS "Beat" mechanic), then the time in between is significant enough to observe and react to what happens after your first attack. If you are attacking on 1/2 or 1/4 beats, then the attacks are so close together as to be almost simultaneous, so there is little time to react and/or change your 2nd attack.

Having said that, usually those 1/2 or 1/4 beat attacks will often land before your foe can double over or fall prone, even if that was the result of the first blow and not the second.
TheOneRonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2020, 10:45 AM   #6
johndallman
Night Watchman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: Effect Timing: Rapid Strike/AoA Double vs Knockdown/Stunning

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
Do you find you need to explain this approach to your players ahead of time, or do they just assume the sequence is "Attack 1 -> Effect -> Attack 2 -> Effect -> Etc"?
The players are with me on the whole "game mechanics approximate an underlying reality" thing, and will ask if they aren't sure what's happening. Fights aren't a huge part of my game-running style, so players don't load up lots of combat rules detail in their heads.
johndallman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2020, 03:11 PM   #7
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Effect Timing: Rapid Strike/AoA Double vs Knockdown/Stunning

Apologies; I thought I posted this shortly after the thread started, but a recent look revealed I'd only hit "Preview." That out of the way...

The easiest, most game-friendly way to run it is to basically let the player decide how many attacks he wants to take that round, then resolve each completely. In the barfight example, the boxer would take a -6 for making two attacks with Rapid Strike. For his first, he opts to go for the Face, and ends up scoring a hit and knocks the foe down due to knockdown/stunning. Now with the target on the ground, he has to switch to crouching (which he can do one per round freely, so as long as he didn't start from a crouch and stand up to punch - say as a cinematic, Mortal Kombat-style uppercut - he should be able to) if he wants to make a second punch, or he could try to kick him or do a grapple or even just outright abandon the second attack. Or if the guy had backup, he could switch targets and punch one of them.

A less-friendly, but not too difficult, way to do it is to require the player to declare all of his attacks prior to making any, just as one must do when creating a Combination, but still resolve each completely. In the barfight example, the boxer has to declare both punches are to the Face, and when the foe falls over, a somewhat-lenient GM would let him crouch and punch at the Face again (unless the foe fell forward), while some might just say the second punch whiffs at the air, as the target is now on the ground). Alternatively, determine how many hits the character scores before rolling for damage and assessing effects at all (the guy fighting the boxer is able to defend himself just fine against the second attack, even if when the results come out it turns out the first attack knocked him unconscious; you could either say it was actually the second hit that did that, or say he managed to avoid the second attack while he was falling unconscious).

My general preference would be the first, but for a more realistic feel, I'd be tempted to crib from something Icelander has mentioned in the past. Basically, have the player declare all of their attacks, then resolve the first attack mostly, but don't have anything that changes target location come into play yet* (stunning is fine, giving the target reduced defense). If the result of the first attack would have some effect on if the character would want to make the second, or modify it in some way, use Situational Awareness from Tactical Shooting (at -4 for a glance); on a success, the character sees what effect their hit had, and thus can change their mind. On a failure, they continue with their initial plan. In the case of the barfight, a successful check lets the boxer know his opponent is stunned and about to fall; he might decide to still go for a punch (but perhaps go for a different location, or burn less skill on Deceptive Attack - maybe even go Telegraphic - due to the foe's reduced defenses), switch to a grapple (to take advantage of his foe's momentary stunning, which will make him easier to potentially pin, as at the very least he won't get a Break Free attempt this round, and may still be stunned next round), shove his off-balance opponent away, swing at one of his opponent's allies, or even just abandon the attack.

*For knockback, I might be inclined to have something like 1/4th of the knockback come into play before the next attack. This won't matter for fights between normal humans - even with a push, an ST 14 character is unlikely to move an ST 8 one more than two yards back) - but for supers with powers that explicitly throw people around, it may make it difficult to land a second hit. I probably wouldn't allow knockback effects to combine, but would have the opponent check to see if they lost their balance and fell separately for each.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2020, 04:33 PM   #8
Say, it isn't that bad!
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Default Re: Effect Timing: Rapid Strike/AoA Double vs Knockdown/Stunning

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
Maybe.

I've done my fair share of sparring too (long time JKD/Modern Arnis practitioner), and more than once I've launched a combination attack where my opponent was in range for the first attack and out of range for the 2nd. In my experience, it's more about the timing between the first attack and the second. If you are attacking on single beats (rhythm, not the GURPS "Beat" mechanic), then the time in between is significant enough to observe and react to what happens after your first attack. If you are attacking on 1/2 or 1/4 beats, then the attacks are so close together as to be almost simultaneous, so there is little time to react and/or change your 2nd attack.

Having said that, usually those 1/2 or 1/4 beat attacks will often land before your foe can double over or fall prone, even if that was the result of the first blow and not the second.
Sounds like you got further into martial arts than me. :) I'll defer to your greater experience.

So it sounds like, in game terms, if you're making an attack with some form of Extra Attack/AoA double (but not Extra Action), then you launch all declared attacks, even if the target is out of position for subsequent attacks?
Say, it isn't that bad! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2020, 12:37 AM   #9
Rupert
 
Rupert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
Default Re: Effect Timing: Rapid Strike/AoA Double vs Knockdown/Stunning

I generally do things one attack at a time. If you do a Rapid Strike and down the opponent with the first hit, bask in your awesome for having done it despite the penalty. Then decide what you're doing with your second attack, or if you're going to abort to something else that would be legal with an attack (probably not much, but there you go).

For Rapid Fire with guns, it's all one attack even if you spread the fire across several targets (and have to roll against each), so I do all the attack and defence rolls first. Following that, I do damage one hit at a time, but usually save rolls for death, etc. until all the damage has been tallied up - if it reaches -5xHP there's no need to roll for anything, so waiting can save time.
__________________
Rupert Boleyn

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
Rupert is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
gming, rule zero

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.