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Old 01-18-2022, 04:25 PM   #11
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Unarmed Combat Talents -- Questions about their application

Finster, Goblin, age 20
ST 6, DX 14, IQ 12, MA 10
Talents include: Dagger Expertise, Unarmed Combat III
Spell: Aid
Languages: Common, Goblin
Weapon: silver dagger (1d)
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d-1)
Defenses: Combining UC III and Weapons Expertise gives -3 to hit, stops 2 hits, and can do super defend option.

Should I take Cestus Expertise instead?


The big winner would be wizards who can wield wands while doing UC III with their off-hand.
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Last edited by hcobb; 01-18-2022 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 01-18-2022, 05:18 PM   #12
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Unarmed Combat Talents -- Questions about their application

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Mixing weapons expertise and UC talents is interesting, Lars. I never thought about that, but then it would take rather a lot of XP to get both.
I think of it as an option for highly experienced characters, adding a new sort of path toward 'chambara' style martial artists. The end result is not really too over powered, and a lot of fun.
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Old 01-18-2022, 05:27 PM   #13
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Unarmed Combat Talents -- Questions about their application

I was never much of a fan of “advanced combat talents” even as they existed in the original rules. I’m even less of a fan of the expanded advanced combat talents in Legacy edition as they seem to me to imbalance the game as I play it. I’d far rather give the players situational advantages than benefits that always operate.
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Old 01-18-2022, 05:30 PM   #14
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: Unarmed Combat Talents -- Questions about their application

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Finster, Goblin, age 20
ST 6, DX 14, IQ 12, MA 10
Talents include: Dagger Expertise, Unarmed Combat III
Spell: Aid
Languages: Common, Goblin
Weapon: silver dagger (1d)
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d-1)
Defenses: Combining UC III and Weapons Expertise gives -3 to hit, stops 2 hits, and can do super defend option.

Should I take Cestus Expertise instead?


The big winner would be wizards who can wield wands while doing UC III with their off-hand.
Minor point, but Lars said his house rule only grants the higher of the two advantages, so -2 to hit.

And, of course, I'd doubt that there is wand expertise that could combine with UC.

It might be that in practice, combining weapon expertise with UC would be awfully powerful. As usual, you've treated ST as a pure dump stat, but you didn't have to. You could have had ST 8, DX 12, IQ 12 and met the minimum requirements for the two skills chosen. Personally, I think you'd live longer with a little ST and that DX 12 is sufficient for most situations. Thrown weapons would be a good thing to have, too. The ability to draw and throw a dagger in one action is quite useful for a UC character.
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:25 AM   #15
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Unarmed Combat Talents -- Questions about their application

A starting wizard can't afford two different combat expertises at 8 memory points each, plus DX 12. What keeps them off the UC track is the need to wield a staff form for the occult blasts. And holding a non-staff item blocks two spell levels. Hence the choices are:
  1. wooden stick (zero memory points, and up to 1d physical damage at ST 8)
  2. Untalented silver dagger staff (zero memory points, but just barely better than a fist strike)
  3. Ordinary talent silver dagger staff (two memory points, one less damage than the maul in melee, fairly good in HTH.)
  4. Expert silver dagger staff (as good as the maul in melee, excellent for HTH and backstabs, but eight memory points!)
  5. Some level of Unarmed Combat to enable instant pins, with some level of melee defense, but no melee offense or occult blast.
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Old 01-20-2022, 07:53 PM   #16
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Default Re: Unarmed Combat Talents -- Questions about their application

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
The big winner would be wizards who can wield wands while doing UC III with their off-hand.
UC talents require both hands to be empty. So a Wizard with UC talents could not use them while holding his wand/staff.
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Old 01-20-2022, 10:00 PM   #17
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Unarmed Combat Talents -- Questions about their application

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Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
UC talents require both hands to be empty. So a Wizard with UC talents could not use them while holding his wand/staff.
Which is why my wizards at least must avoid the UC route. I was responding to a hypothetical in which the limitation was lifted.
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Old 01-21-2022, 07:20 AM   #18
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Unarmed Combat Talents -- Questions about their application

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Which is why my wizards at least must avoid the UC route. I was responding to a hypothetical in which the limitation was lifted.
Yes, but Lars lifted it only in the case of weapons expertise. You may be able to get by with your dagger staff that way, but it would be expensive (and the GM could always just say no if he wanted).
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Old 01-21-2022, 09:03 AM   #19
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Indiana
Default Re: Unarmed Combat Talents -- Questions about their application

In real life, UC talents are commonly coupled with various, non-bulky or heavy weapons. The staff and/or cane is an excellent example. There are others that couple UC talents with knives and blades. I personally know people that have trained in such weapons as a part of their martial arts training (UC Talents) and have achieved levels of mastery within their schools.

While UC I talent states that both hands must be free, per the reality factor expressed above, I see no reason why some weapons talents can't be coupled with UC talents or, at least, higher level UC talents.

So, in my opinion, the UC talents can be coupled with such weapon talents. I think that the requirement of Weapon and Weapon Mastery talent can allow it to be coupled in that manner. However, there will be no UC damage bonuses applied to the weapon while still retaining the other benefits of UC talents such as DX modifications and naturally stopping more hits. Weapon Mastery talent and ST modifications would still apply. They would still be limited to cloth armor.

Since the cestus is a worn like a glove/gauntlet and simply adds 3 points to Bare Hands Damage (BHD). The cestus +3 would not be modified via HTH rules. It would simply add 3 after the BHD is modified in HTH. So, in regular combat the cestus would add 3 points to BHD and in an HTH grapple, it would add 3 points to the modified HTH damage.

Theoretically, this could apply to just about any weapon talent but, as I implied earlier, should be limited to the traditionally light or less bulky weapons that commonly appear in various martial arts disciplines. So, staves, knives, small swords, small axes (???), spears, sha-ken, and cesti would be a practical application while large pole weapons, swords, axes, and most bludgeoning weapons (except maybe a club) would be impractical. Of course, some/much of this will be at the ultimate decision of the GM.

A good GM can always figure out how to fill in the gray areas between RAW and reality. Reality is that people with UC talents commonly couple some weapons with their abilities. Finding a way to do it within the rules is the trick. I believe that requiring UC be combined with Weapons Expertise is an excellent bridge between RAW and reality.

Last edited by Bill_in_IN; 01-21-2022 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 01-21-2022, 09:45 AM   #20
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Unarmed Combat Talents -- Questions about their application

UC talents have some strange assumptions built into them that make them not very believable. From what I've seen and my (admittedly limited) knowledge of military history, there is no reason to prohibit someone wearing heavier armor from using a karate (or similar) blow or someone holding a sword to attempt a one-handed judo throw.
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