Unarmed Combat Talents -- Questions about their application

[hcobb]

Would you allow a figure to both pin and put a dagger to the pinned's throat?

[Shostak]

It works in the movies.

[larsdangly]

One of two major problems with 'pinning' in TFT is it is totally unclear what happens next. I think the whole thing is such a mess in practice that you are better off just substituting your own house rule(s)

[Skarg]

Yes, though the interpretation I like is that it merely reduces the pinned person's options to attempting to break free for two turns unless the pinner lets go. That is extremely powerful as is, and does not need any of the extra advantages Henry keeps suggesting, except maybe out of combat, or something to answer what's needed to tie someone up.

There is another RAW interpretation, though, which is that "helpless" does mean that figure can be automatically killed in one turn. (See ITL p. 70 and p. 121.)

The other, even more crucial, broken aspect of course is how easy the rules make it for someone with even one (not to mention more) levels of UC talent advantage over the target, and how there are no limits or effects of size, weight or strength.

Even having a highish adjDX makes this really easy to do RAW. I've posted house rule suggestions before. An easy one would be to make the base roll 4d instead of 3d, and make the minimum difficulty 3d, and have each hex the target is larger add 1 die to the difficulty, and have ST difference also be a modifier.

[hcobb]

Can my teeny goblin witch UC throw and pin a foe too strong for her to shield rush?

[larsdangly]

Originally Posted by Shostak

UC talents have some strange assumptions built into them that make them not very believable. From what I've seen and my (admittedly limited) knowledge of military history, there is no reason to prohibit someone wearing heavier armor from using a karate (or similar) blow or someone holding a sword to attempt a one-handed judo throw.

Most of the relevant-period martial arts manuals from europe assume that both armored and unarmored people will attempt throws that are functionally like the throws represented by UC talents. You could argue that this is all too granular of detail for TFT, i.e., that all that grappling and throwing is encapsulated by the rule that when you succeed at entering HTH you both fall to the ground. In truth, that is what usually the end result when two armored or unarmored people clinch and grapple for several seconds. So, the question is whether you want to change the rules to allow for the unusual but real possibility that a skilled armored person will thrown another to the ground but stay on their own feet. On the other hand, the medieval european manuals don't contain many unarmed strikes, so all the punching and kicking in east asian martial arts is a more secondary thing in this context.

[Shostak]

I absolutely recommend different rules for grappling, HTH, and revised UC talent benefits.

[Helborn]

IMO, TFT has always had an underlying assumption that bulkiness and imprecision went hand in hand. That is the reason for the DX penalties - whether from armor or from lack of ST.
The imprecision of bulkier armor also affects Unarmed Combat.
This has never been historically accurate but is a decent gaming approach.
The Greeks and Romans wrestled and boxed unclothed. Part of that was to protect the attacker's hands and feet from being broken by the contact. East Asian martial arts had the same attitude. According to some sources, the creation of extreme callouses that were not harmed by contact with stone or metals only appeared with the "do" (art) forms rather than the original "jitsu" (skill) forms.
Part of the issue of bulkier armors is that you lose the fine tactile sense and proprioception.
You can still trip, push over or shield rush in any armor, but the more exact throws and holds of martial arts become impossible.

[larsdangly]

I think anyone who has done ringen, especially in armor, realizes that it generally amounts to two people going to ground, with one trying to do so at some advantage. I understand there are all kinds of complex throws and submissions, but in the heat of the moment and against a more or less equal and non cooperative foe, most of that stuff breaks down or gets really, really simplified. So, there is a case to be made that all of this falls under 'entering HTH', excepting for a few people with truly extraordinary skills.