Self Levitation and Movement (+C.M. oh my!)

[MrWizard]

Interesting debate came up last night in our session, wanted some input.

I am playing a mage with Compartmentalized Mind, which is awesome, but often complicating... But lets ignore the CM for now.

I cast Levitation on my self. I can now 'fly' at move 3.

Is that movement a 'maneuver'??? My party/GM was arguing its a physical MOVE action... but its super not, right?

Rules for Levitation say movement doesn't even count as a concentration action when self cast. So only a -1 for a spell on, not -3 for concentration. And it is definitely a mental action not a physical action... is there some gray area here I'm not seeing?

Anyways, adding back in the Compartmentalized Mind, they concluded I could not move my self with my self cast levitate AND move another levitated target AND cast another spell. But I would argue I could do that even without CM...

Moving myself with my Levitate is a function of the spell being on (-1 to other spells) and using Concentration to move the second Levitation target causes a -3 to a new spell being cast (by definition NOT preventing other spells being cast. So I would think that with my CM I could:

Move myself with my levitate (1 spell on)
Move my second levitate target (2 spells on, plus a -3 for concentrating)
Take a mental action with one compartment to cast another spell (with up to -5 depending on which compartments are maintaining the spells and concentrating)
Take another action Physical or Mental to attack or cast a second spell. (with the remainder of my cumulative -5 for concentration and spells on)

Am I on track here... what am I missing?

Relevant section from the Magic Rules:

CASTING SPELLS WHILE MAINTAINING OTHER SPELLS
You can only cast one new spell at a time. However, you can cast new spells before older ones end. Apply the following modifiers whenever you cast spells

while you have other spells active: -3 per spell you are concentrating on at the moment. See the individual spell descriptions to learn which spells require concentration.

-1 per other spell you have “on” at the moment. Only temporary spells carry this penalty.

[Not another shrubbery]

Moving with Levitation requires a Move maneuver, just as if you had natural Air Move 3.

[MrWizard]

Ok, I see the argument.

But for the sake of argument:

Its not a move maneuver if the caster is moving someone else, right? Why is it different? The rules seem to punish the caster *less* for self levitating by not making it require concentration to move yourself. Those aren't necessarily at odds, but it seems weird to me.

Also, what are you basing this conclusion on? Is it written in the rules somewhere or just your interpretation?

Thanks for your input!

[Varyon]

Moving yourself with Levitate should either call for a Concentrate (to concentrate on the spell and move you around) or a Move (because you're moving around under your own power) Maneuver, it shouldn't be a free action. I similarly wouldn't let a mage cast it on themselves, then charge forward at full speed (well, Move 3 anyway) and make an attack simply as an Attack Maneuver, that would need to be a Move and Attack (although I'd allow using Concentrate for the movement, so one with Compartmentalized Mind could use their CM to move, then make a normal Attack). So, I'd say that, unless you group opts to allow for a Move and Concentrate Maneuver, you can only do two of those things at once - move yourself (with Concentrate or Move), move someone else (with Concentrate), and/or cast a spell (with Concentrate). There's no framework in GURPS for "You can move yourself around without taking an action that grants movement." That said, I believe Concentrate allows for a Step, so you probably should have been able to move 1 yard, even if doing Concentrate for your main Maneuver.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by MrWizard

Ok, I see the argument.

But for the sake of argument:

Its not a move maneuver if the caster is moving someone else, right? Why is it different? The rules seem to punish the caster *less* for self levitating by not making it require concentration to move yourself. Those aren't necessarily at odds, but it seems weird to me.

Also, what are you basing this conclusion on? Is it written in the rules somewhere or just your interpretation?

Thanks for your input!

*shrug* It makes sense to me that using Levitation on yourself would be easier than on someone else. I guess if that bothered someone, it wouldn't be a huge deal to require Concentrate maneuvers for both.

It is my considered opinion :) and it seems to stand to reason. Why would a relatively simple spell like Levitation give you 3D movement as a free action? I'm sure I've seen a Kromm quote supporting that. If I come across it, I'll point to it.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by MrWizard

I cast Levitation on my self. I can now 'fly' at move 3.

Is that movement a 'maneuver'??? My party/GM was arguing its a physical MOVE action... but its super not, right?

Rules for Levitation say movement doesn't even count as a concentration action when self cast. So only a -1 for a spell on, not -3 for concentration. And it is definitely a mental action not a physical action... is there some gray area here I'm not seeing?

CM gives you additional mental maneuvers.
Levitation requires a Concentrate to move someone, except yourself.
So CM would let you move someone else then do your normal maneuver.
You *could* argue that your using a Concentrate with CM to move and still have another maneuver but that is debatable. The GM would basically be letting you treat your spell a bit worse than is normal. I would likely allow this but would require that Concentrate maneuver.

Originally Posted by MrWizard

Anyways, adding back in the Compartmentalized Mind, they concluded I could not move my self with my self cast levitate AND move another levitated target AND cast another spell. But I would argue I could do that even without CM...

Moving myself with my Levitate is a function of the spell being on (-1 to other spells) and using Concentration to move the second Levitation target causes a -3 to a new spell being cast (by definition NOT preventing other spells being cast. So I would think that with my CM I could:

Move myself with my levitate (1 spell on)
Move my second levitate target (2 spells on, plus a -3 for concentrating)
Take a mental action with one compartment to cast another spell (with up to -5 depending on which compartments are maintaining the spells and concentrating)
Take another action Physical or Mental to attack or cast a second spell. (with the remainder of my cumulative -5 for concentration and spells on)

Move something with levitate requires a Concentrate, or if yourself is part of a move maneuver.
Moving that second target requires a Concentrate, which would allow you a Step and that is it. CM lets you have one extra Concentrate.
Casting a spell takes a Concentrate.
So normally you could Move someone else, cast a spell (both a Concentrate), or do something else like say a Move and Attack (allowed if you levitated yourself since you don't need to Concentrate).
CM gives you an extra Concentrate so you could
A) Take two Concentrates, one to move someone else and one to cast a spell.
B) Take a Concentrate + one other maneuver (Concentrate to cast or a physical maneuver).

It sounds like your trying to take three maneuvers when you only have two.

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by MrWizard

Ok, I see the argument.

But for the sake of argument:

Its not a move maneuver if the caster is moving someone else, right? Why is it different? The rules seem to punish the caster *less* for self levitating by not making it require concentration to move yourself. Those aren't necessarily at odds, but it seems weird to me.

Also, what are you basing this conclusion on? Is it written in the rules somewhere or just your interpretation?

Thanks for your input!

If you cast the spell on your belt (or webbing, or pants...) then you must use Concentrate to levitate, so that gets you what you want. It also suggests that it would be simpler and more sensible to allow that when cast on the caster.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Moving with Levitation requires a Move maneuver, just as if you had natural Air Move 3.

wouldn't natural air move 3 have the option to travel at Move 1 (a step) via other maneuvers?

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

*shrug* It makes sense to me that using Levitation on yourself would be easier than on someone else. I guess if that bothered someone, it wouldn't be a huge deal to require Concentrate maneuvers for both.

It is my considered opinion :) and it seems to stand to reason. Why would a relatively simple spell like Levitation give you 3D movement as a free action? I'm sure I've seen a Kromm quote supporting that. If I come across it, I'll point to it.

That Kromm Quote.

Originally Posted by Plane

wouldn't natural air move 3 have the option to travel at Move 1 (a step) via other maneuvers?

Yes a normal Step of 1 yard that can combine with, for instance, a Concentrate.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

That Kromm Quote.Yes a normal Step of 1 yard that can combine with, for instance, a Concentrate.

I notice that thread is talking about the Dungeon Fantasy RPG, so I checked out where it talks about Appportation on page 56 of Spells and compared it to the GURPS Magic version on page 142.

M142 initially had that only resistable by will, which in a way was better than Levitation on M143 which could be resisted by Will or ST, making Apportation a good way to target high-ST low-Will subjects.

Spells56 has changed that though, also making Apportation resistable by ST also (not sure if Striking ST or Lifting ST help)

M142 didn't really talk about concentration whereas S56 does, so Dungeon Fantasy's "Spells" seems to have added a lot of useful detail to pre-existing spells assuming we consider these backwards-compatible and interchangeable.

I don't really like the idea of free concentration just because you're the subject (in fact in Psionic Powers isn't there penalties for self-targeting?) but maybe if it was something like "you can take a concentrate as a free action for -10 to skill" and you had to make a skill roll each term to maintain concentration, you could offset it somehow by giving +10 to concentrate on levitating something you are physically touching (like your own body)