[MA] Wrestling with Weapons

[Icelander]

The Armed Grapple technique presumably allows a full range of grappling followups.

Do you use weapon skill to perform these*, do you continue to use your level of the Armed Grapple technique (meaning that it's useful for any grappling roll made with the weapon that's not explicitly another technique) or do you use a 'normal' grappling skill such as Wrestling or Judo?

Also, throwing people from locks. This option is described as being for Arm Locks, Finger Locks, Head Locks and Leg Locks. Weapons can be used to make Arm Locks, but not the other kinds of locks mentioned. But I cannot see any logical reason why it should not be possible to throw someone from a lock where you are using a weapon as lever, for example, around the neck. Certainly, if you can throw someone from an Arm Lock where you are using a weapon as a lever, you should be able to do it while holding him up by his neck with a weapon.

And while weapons cannot be used to make Head Locks, they can be used for Choke Holds. Now, I can see how some Choke Holds don't really offer a smooth transition into throwing people with their neck as the axis, but if someone were to establish an armed grapple explicitly with the intention of getting his foe into a position where he could throw him from it, what rule would one use?

Would one allow a throw from Choke Hold with a weapon? Or would one allow him to use Head Lock with the weapon and then follow it up with a throw? Or is there some reason I'm missing why it should be impossible to use Throws from Locks** with weapons?

I'm well aware that I'm the GM and can thus decide what I want. I'm looking for the most realistic answer.

*Takedowns, shoving people around, shifting grip, pin, etc.
**Other than from Arm Lock.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Do you use weapon skill to perform these*, do you continue to use your level of the Armed Grapple technique (meaning that it's useful for any grappling roll made with the weapon that's not explicitly another technique) or do you use a 'normal' grappling skill such as Wrestling or Judo?

I'd say Armed Grapple or a normal grappling skill. I could go either way on which, but I'm hesitant to say Armed Grapple due to game balance because I think it might de-emphasize grappling skills too much.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Also, throwing people from locks. This option is described as being for Arm Locks, Finger Locks, Head Locks and Leg Locks. Weapons can be used to make Arm Locks, but not the other kinds of locks mentioned.

Seems silly, I can imagine a weapon being used in all of those.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Would one allow a throw from Choke Hold with a weapon? Or would one allow him to use Head Lock with the weapon and then follow it up with a throw? Or is there some reason I'm missing why it should be impossible to use Throws from Locks** with weapons?

I can think of specific examples of all of those types of locks using weapons except for leg locks from both MCMAP (bayonet and knife training) and Escrima (knife and baton training). I'd allow the other types of locks.

[Carlos]

And to make an armed grapple, I suppose you need the left hand free (once you're holding your weapon with the right hand), so you can't do that if you're using shields, right?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Carlos

And to make an armed grapple, I suppose you need the left hand free (once you're holding your weapon with the right hand), so you can't do that if you're using shields, right?

I would personally not go so far.

I'd simply apply the shield penalty for CC and an additional -2 from having a shield in your hand while using it for grappling (the same penalty as you'd get to use a dagger held in your shield hand while having the shield strapped on).

Effectively, Armed Grapple makes any weapon two-handed for the duration of the grapple.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

I'd say Armed Grapple or a normal grappling skill. I could go either way on which, but I'm hesitant to say Armed Grapple due to game balance because I think it might de-emphasize grappling skills too much.

There is also another very good game-mechanical reason to say grappling skills. If one were to use weapon skills or the Armed Grapple technique, neither of those grants a skill-based bonus to ST nor interacts with the Power Grappling Perk.

We probably want to avoid a situation where any trained grappler would be less effective with a weapon than without it, even if he was also a master of using the weapon to grapple.

But I'm curious what the authors' intent is here.

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Seems silly, I can imagine a weapon being used in all of those.

I can think of specific examples of all of those types of locks using weapons except for leg locks from both MCMAP (bayonet and knife training) and Escrima (knife and baton training). I'd allow the other types of locks.

So your solution, at least, is to amend all the lock types to add the same option as for Arm Lock.

Well, that sounds fine to me, but I wonder why Kromm and Peter specifically avoided doing so.

[Lord Carnifex]

I'm not either of the authors, but if you were in my campaign and I were your GM...

Originally Posted by Icelander

The Armed Grapple technique presumably allows a full range of grappling followups.

Do you use weapon skill to perform these*, do you continue to use your level of the Armed Grapple technique (meaning that it's useful for any grappling roll made with the weapon that's not explicitly another technique) or do you use a 'normal' grappling skill such as Wrestling or Judo?

The simple answer here is that I'd go with the grappling skill/technique being used. I'd say that throwing someone from an arm lock implemented with a escrima stick is still largely GURPS Judo skill. The more complex answer might be to allow the weapon skill to be used, with the appropriate Technique Adaptation or Skill Adaptation Perk.

Also, throwing people from locks. This option is described as being for Arm Locks, Finger Locks, Head Locks and Leg Locks. Weapons can be used to make Arm Locks, but not the other kinds of locks mentioned.

Simple answer: allow the Armed Grappling technique to make other kinds of locks. Complex Answer: I can't really see a broadsword pommel being used to assist a finger lock, but a Sharpie (TM) marker could. So this might be on a case-by-case basis.

But I cannot see any logical reason why it should not be possible to throw someone from a lock where you are using a weapon as lever, for example, around the neck. Certainly, if you can throw someone from an Arm Lock where you are using a weapon as a lever, you should be able to do it while holding him up by his neck with a weapon.

Simple answer: Allow throws from locks implemented with weapons. Certainly I know a few Escrima locks done with the stick that can be converted to what GURPS would call a Judo Throw. Complex answer: weapons used in locks increase leverage and strength, but don't bend and don't have as much finesse as a trained grappler's arms and hands. This is a little iffy for me, but adjudicating it would require a lot of knowledge and interpretation as to exactly what throws are being attmepted from what locks using what weapons. Too much work for me.

And while weapons cannot be used to make Head Locks, they can be used for Choke Holds. Now, I can see how some Choke Holds don't really offer a smooth transition into throwing people with their neck as the axis, but if someone were to establish an armed grapple explicitly with the intention of getting his foe into a position where he could throw him from it, what rule would one use?

This is murkier territory for me. I never learned any maneuvers transitioning from a choke to a throw. But that doesn't mean it's impossible. However, usually the goal in obtaining a Choke Hold is to choke the person, while a Head Lock provides control of the head and thus the rest of the body.

Would one allow a throw from Choke Hold with a weapon? Or would one allow him to use Head Lock with the weapon and then follow it up with a throw? Or is there some reason I'm missing why it should be impossible to use Throws from Locks** with weapons?

I'd say, let the weapon user implement a Head Lock, and then throw from there. Save Choke Hold for actually choking people.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Carlos

And to make an armed grapple, I suppose you need the left hand free (once you're holding your weapon with the right hand), so you can't do that if you're using shields, right?

I've learned a number of techniques that grapple using a buckler and sword.

[DouglasCole]

Maybe just go with Armed Grapple as a technique from Grappling skills, but limit it to the lower of Armed Grapple and Weapon Skill.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Maybe just go with Armed Grapple as a technique from Grappling skills, but limit it to the lower of Armed Grapple and Weapon Skill.

I like it. Feels right.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

I like it. Feels right.

I like it too. Grappling with a weapon seems to be different from striking with a weapon, and has far more in line with unarmed grappling, and shares a greater body of work with weapons training.

It does sort of change armed grapple from a side tech of weapon skill, and a tech of wrestling. I'm fairly comfortable with the change, as I think it matches, but is it universal?