Talents or points

[naloth]

Should Talents get you to the DX+1, DX+2 threshold for bonuses or should it effectively raise the attribute for determining the final skill level?

This isn't relevant for most of the fighting skills as they are part of talents (though it would be for Pickaxe Penchant and Forest Guardian if they also had Weapon Master), but it comes up in a few Talents that have Forced Entry.

I've always played it as the latter (meaning you had to invest the skill points), but Characters actually references it both as "a bonus of +1 per level" and as effectively raising your attribute. Balance wise, I doubt it comes up much. Usually if you want the skills in the talent you'll be putting points in them as well, and I suspect the different between dropping 1 point in Forced Entry rather than 2 or 4 will break anything.

Mostly it's just a curiosity...

[smurf]

Talents have a couple of other functions. Each level allows you to take 10% off of learning time and each level gives you a reaction bonus to others who appreciate expertise in a given field.

I also enjoy the Talents Mechanic because it stops 'Mages and Psis' from being uber smart that can default buckets of stuff like in previous editions. Other Talents will also reduce the mad Attribute grab and gives the character more nuance, good at X but not good at Y etc.

[Rupert]

B89 says "This effectively raises your relative skill level with those skills only". [Emphasis mine]

As Karate, etc., and Weapon Master consider skill level relative to Attribute, I think Talent does count. My gut feeling was that you should invest skill points, but the RAW reads the other way.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Rupert

B89 says "This effectively raises your relative skill level with those skills only". [Emphasis mine]

As Karate, etc., and Weapon Master consider skill level relative to Attribute, I think Talent does count. My gut feeling was that you should invest skill points, but the RAW read the other way.

You have the recently updated PDF; the wording was changed at that update. So I think we can consider it a change in the light of experience.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Rupert

B89 says "This effectively raises your relative skill level with those skills only". [Emphasis mine]

As Karate, etc., and Weapon Master consider skill level relative to Attribute, I think Talent does count. My gut feeling was that you should invest skill points, but the RAW read the other way.

I've never had anyone take a talent yet with these skills, but I know talent acts odd in other places; For instance, some actions can roll against attribute or skill, whichever is better. Talent increases the skill, not the attribute, meaning that 'minimum points required' for those skills goes down with Talent. Damage bonus skills make perfect sense to follow suit even if I'd normally rule the opposite,

[Taneli]

Talents were originally written in a way that (to me) read like they're supposed to increase your attributes for the talents skills, but they've been used since the basic set example characters like they increase the relative level instead.

That is, with an attribute of 12, an easy skill with 1 point and a relevant talent at level 1 the interpretations are as follows:

1) My reading from the original basic set:

Skill-13 [1] Att+0

2) Usage since the start in character examples:

Skill-13 [1] Att+1


I think that in the end the second way is easier in many ways, for instance, you can just drop all the talents and then check defaults, and then just drop the talents back in for the relevant skills. Also, for skills that have relative level bonuses, I think that if the talent is supposed to represent some innate greater ability for that specific thing, then it kind of makes sense that someone with Attribute + Talent at level X gets those relative level bonii faster than someone with just raw Attribute at the same level X. And even if that was not the goal, it also creates a bit of a push away from builds that are bent on getting the highest possible IQ and/or DX for the available point budget, and instead getting a more moderate IQ and/or DX plus Talents related to that character's main focus (which might not always work out, as combat talents seem to be something of an almost-anathema).