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Old 05-13-2019, 09:26 AM   #11
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Default Re: Combat Mastery Talent

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
When considering Talents, it is not really that unbalanced to have Talents that focus on one combat skill (...) What do you think? Do you think that it would be balanced? Would you allow such Talents into your games?
I think it would be OK, considering there are other talents which help you with magic (AFAIK).

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I do not know if I would allow that version of Knight (...) I think a more interesting version would give a skill bonus Lance, Leadership, Riding (Horse), Shield, and Tactics (...)
I thought it was not allowed buying talents for combat skills. Or was this always possible?

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Why do people refer to things that divert Players from just bumping up Attributes as a "point crock"? It ain't a point crock, it's a strategy.
I agree with eevee.

On the other hand, I think it is better having PCs buy up to 4 levels of (say) a 5 point talent, than having them buy attributes. For example, while the approach of boosting many skills trough DX is nice, this often leads to a team of generalists (in my groups).

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
A point crock is a strategy. It's a point crock because you are buying skill levels for [1] instead of [4].
But strategies needn't be a point crock. On the other hand, character design wise, buying DX to improve lots of (unrelated) skills/defaults is less enticing than a talent which focuses on the characters' role.

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Originally Posted by Lord Azagthoth View Post
I use the half-stat rule from Pyramid, and skills cost 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 (1, 3, 6, 10, 15) per level but kept the point value for talents the same. But the players can only buy a talent at character creation.
What's the pyramid #?
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:32 AM   #12
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Default Re: Combat Mastery Talent

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Originally Posted by Hide View Post
I thought it was not allowed buying talents for combat skills.
I it was discouraged (but not prohibited) on the grounds that there was not enough underlying difference between the nature of one weapon skill vs another to justify inclusions and exclusions in a Talent and it would be a point crock.



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while the approach of boosting many skills trough DX is nice, this often leads to a team of generalists.
Yes, characterization is the best justification for Talents IMO. I like to think of a Talent as a 'custom Attribute'. The idea seems to break down though IMO when you get to [15] cost.

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... buying DX to improve lots of (unrelated) skills/defaults is less enticing than a talent which focuses on the characters' role.
Yeah, but my simulationist leaning makes me prefer to think of the character's nature rather than his role.
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Old 05-13-2019, 12:07 PM   #13
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Default Re: Combat Mastery Talent

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Originally Posted by joppeknol View Post
In the end this is boring and unfunny (for me).
???

But you're fine with it if the 5 skills all line up perfectly with what the Player wants and they just happen to be 'thematic'?


For instance I once played a street-savy fast-talking con artist. The GM laid down the rules upfront, 200 character point at start (plus -50 in Disads, -5 Quirks), Attributes were capped at 14, Talents could only be taken at game start, skills had to be bought up with time and exp, but Attributes could be raised at any time between games with enough exp.


So I started with an IQ 10 and bought 4 levels each in Cultural Chameleon, Empath, Impersonator, Street-Smart, Talker, and Tough Guy (every single Talent was thematically appropriate and what I wanted from a Talent for the Character).

The GM grunted but relented as I was clearly in the rules as he established them... also I was nowhere near stepping on any other niche as I'd walked into the chargen session saying "I'm playing the Face" and everyone agreed.

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The value of a talent should imho be more something that describes the character, than that it is the 'better' choice.
We clearly disagree. I think both are fine.

Also... you do realize I can spin a backstory to make any set of Talents or Talent builds into something that 'describes the Character'? I've done this before, and I'll do it again...




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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Which choice serves to eviscerate the concept of a talent and to enable the resulting point crock.

But 'thematically related' wasn't the original concept either.
So which is it? Is it in line with the "concept of Talents" or does it destroy the "concept of Talents"?




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Originally Posted by Hide View Post
I thought it was not allowed buying talents for combat skills. Or was this always possible?
It was never disallowed, it was merely vaguely discouraged in a single sentence at the end of the Talent write up in Basic:

"For instance, Sports Talent might make sense – some athletes really do seem to have a gift – but the GM ought to forbid Ninja Talent or Weapon Talent (but see Weapon Master, p. 99)."

There has never been anything in a published work saying "Do not put combat skills into talents". For instance 'Pickaxe Penchant', 'Strangler', and 'Mr. Smash' would all immediately give lie to that notion.

Further I've always considered this sentence from Power-Ups 3 Talents to be incredibly ill-thought out:

"Finally, he has the right to reject a proposed Talent that doesn’t seem like a believable inborn knack given the character’s race and the campaign’s realism level, genre, etc.; he should definitely do so for one that’s nothing but a way to save points on skills whose only relationship is “skills I plan to learn” (although that’s sometimes acceptable when using Talents as Training, p. 25)."

So... it's okay if my Character takes 'Talker' or 'Born Soldier' when all the skills are ones I plan to buy and wish to save points on and fits the theme of the Character (a Face or soldier), but not okay if I write up say "Mugger" which has Intimidation, Streetwise, Shadowing, Stealth, and Knife? Because they are all skills I plan to buy and wish to save points on, but the Character is not yet a 'mugger'? I mean who knows, maybe mugging is in his destiny?

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I agree with eevee.
I suddenly feel mega cute.

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On the other hand, I think it is better having PCs buy up to 4 levels of (say) a 5 point talent, than having them buy attributes. For example, while the approach of boosting many skills trough DX is nice, this often leads to a team of generalists (in my groups).
My problem with high stats in a nutshell. In DF where the niche skills are semi-protected by said Character in said niche continuously raising them and staying ahead of the default curve of the group... once your 'core PCs' hit say 400+ points a newby Character's best skills might be only a few points above various older PCs defaults. And can be a problem (mostly for Thief, the most maligned Profession)...

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On the other hand, character design wise, buying DX to improve lots of (unrelated) skills/defaults is less enticing than a talent which focuses on the characters' role.
Depends on whom you are talking to (less enticing to the GM almost always).

I built a JoAT Sage in a DF game... so... to me buying up IQ will eventually be 'core' to the Character's role. Being good at everything that defaults from IQ, Per, and Will.

And that may end up being a problem...
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Old 05-13-2019, 02:09 PM   #14
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Default Re: Combat Mastery Talent

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
So which is it? Is it in line with the "concept of Talents" or does it destroy the "concept of Talents"?
I'm afraid I don't understand what contradiction you want me to resolve.
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Old 05-13-2019, 02:49 PM   #15
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Default Re: Combat Mastery Talent

Of course DX and IQ are overly broad, that is always going to be an issue with a four attribute system. At least it is not like HT. I can take HT 15, Basic Speed -1.25, Very Fit, Susceptible (Disease) 5, and Susceptible (Poison) 5, and be much better off than a HT 10 person, despite being worth the same number of points.
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:03 PM   #16
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Default Re: Combat Mastery Talent

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Of course DX and IQ are overly broad, that is always going to be an issue with a four attribute system. At least it is not like HT. I can take HT 15, Basic Speed -1.25, Very Fit, Susceptible (Disease) 5, and Susceptible (Poison) 5, and be much better off than a HT 10 person, despite being worth the same number of points.
But you have also used -65 points worth of Disadvantages to get that build, and if the Disadvantage limit is lower than that (like -50) you'll have spent more points than the HT 10 character.
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:00 PM   #17
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Default Re: Combat Mastery Talent

I have not had a game where PCs are less than 200 CP since 4e came out, and I never apply disadvantage limits to NPCs, so disadvantage limits are sort of an abstraction for my games (since the suggested disadvantage limit is 50% a character CP total). The point of the matter is though that HT is more easily exploitable than any other attribute. For example, I could make a character with HT 20, Basic Speed -2.00, Susceptible (Disease) 5, and Susceptible (Poison) 5, and the character would be leagues better off than a character with HT 12, despite the two packages costing the same amount. The former character still have a bonus FP+8, +8 against HT threats (+3 against Disease and Poison), and +8 to HT skills. Yes, I have used 80 CP of my disadvantage limit, but it does not matter because they are 'free' disadvantages that do not hinder my character to any measurable degree.
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:11 PM   #18
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Default Re: Combat Mastery Talent

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
I'm afraid I don't understand what contradiction you want me to resolve.
Just more noting that you state one thing and then immediately stated the opposite.
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Old 05-13-2019, 05:42 PM   #19
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Default Re: Combat Mastery Talent

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Just more noting that you state one thing and then immediately stated the opposite.
I understood you were saying that, but I don't know what you meant by it. I don't see what inconsistency you are purporting to identify.
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Old 05-13-2019, 06:25 PM   #20
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Default Re: Combat Mastery Talent

I see no problem with a combat mastery talent like that. I see no problem with something like this too:

Talent: Archer [5/lvl]
Armoury (Missile Weapons), Bow, Connisseur (Missile Weapons), Fast-Draw (Arrow), Zen Archery.
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