Magic System from MH

[Langy]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

??? Either Ritual Magic skill or Thaumatology skill can be used for either Effect Shaping or Energy Accumulating versions of Path/Book ritual magic. The two dichotomies aren't tied together.

I have absolutely no idea what it is you're trying to tell me here. What you posted has zero connection to what you quoted; mind clarifying things?

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Langy

I have absolutely no idea what it is you're trying to tell me here. What you posted has zero connection to what you quoted; mind clarifying things?

I thought you were responding to Refplace:

Assuming you have to learn 1 extra skill Ritual Magic or Thaumatology would it be worth it to you to learn both?

If not, it's not clear to me who you were saying 'not really' to...

My point was that whether the system is Effect Shaping or Energy Accumulating has nothing to do with what you use as the primary skill. You can have:

1) Effect Shaping based on Ritual Magic
2) Effect Shaping based on Thaumatology
3) Energy Accumulating based on Ritual Magic
4) Energy Accumulating based on Thaumatology

So, the difference between Effect Shaping and Energy Accumulating says nothing about whether it's worth buying an extra skill.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

I thought you were responding to Refplace:

Yeah I got that.
I reread the section this morning too, both use either skill or others if you want. So back to my question on are the differences enough that most people would be comfortable or prefer using two different skills?
The energy accumulation is off the Path skill anyhow as is the skill for casting an effect Ritual. I am leaning towards just using the same skill but would like others opinions.

Also the other bit. It matters less if your using the same skills as your not paying extra. However there is the whole design work in making the spell lists.
I currently use the Effect Shaping part as is from Thaumatology, just added some new Rituals and changed the paths to closer match the colleges..
In Essence I am replacing the Ritual system in Basic which uses the standard spells with Rituals in Thaumatology.
The Effect shaping method was chosen becasue it feels safer for low skilled mages and more of a background magic system. Also Rituals taking the same amount of time makes the economic portion easier.

But the system is very arbitrary on new Rituals.
So for Pcs I am considering adding Energy Accumulation using the guidelines that RPK set forth in MH based off the Path System and Syntactic being merged.
This lets Pcs make up some new Rituals with some decent rules for consistency.
But would it be worth it?

[Langy]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

I thought you were responding to Refplace:

It was. Your post still has nothing at all to do with what I posted, for two reasons.

1. Refplace specified using Ritual Magery for PBM and the normal skill for RPM.
2. The post you quoted had nothing whatsoever to do with the skills involved. It was about whether or not I'd want to learn both RPM and Effect Shaping Path/Book Magic (the answer being 'no, there would be no need'). I will say that I assumed you'd need a different type of Magery to use each one, though. If I could switch between RPM and PBM at will at no cost, sure, I'd go for that, but I don't see it being a huge benefit.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

I haven't read Monster Hunters. In a few words, how does the magic system work?

Apart from not having pre-designed spells, it works infinitely better than the magic system in GURPS Magic.

It does have a slightly "off key" magic model in that spell power is less important than not freaking Dana Scully out, but that works very well for Monster Hunters, and can work well in many other setting types too.

I have serious problems with freeform magic, though, and I also think it's hard on GMs and tends to engender a restrictive and "if in doubt, feel very free to say no" GMing attitude.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

I have serious problems with freeform magic, though, and I also think it's hard on GMs and tends to engender a restrictive and "if in doubt, feel very free to say no" GMing attitude.

Freeform magic gives the players more freedom than any other system of magic that I'm aware of.

And somebody at the table saying "no" is only a problem in an adversarial group. In a cooperative group, it happens and people move on.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Gef

There are 9 magical paths, two effect levels, and half a dozen types of effects. So you wanna be Conan? The GM rules that's Lesser Strengthen Body. You wanna be Hercules? Well that's Greater Strengthen Body. The path determines the skill to use; the type of effects determine base energy cost; and greater effects multiply the energy costs. Duration and area demand energy as well. Then you "gather energy" with a series of skill rolls, which takes time. The more energy, the more time and the more checks, and more checks mean more risk. These checks accumulate a penalty if you have to do a lot of them to build up a big spell, which implies that you need a high skill to cast a big spell. Or you could get help, but then you take a penalty for assistants, so that's a wash. Because spells take a long time, especially the big ones, you store them in a charm, so a witch will be festooned with more than a dozen charms, each of which can quickly release a spell that took her time and effort to cast.

How many rolls are typically required to get a big effect?

I was worried that would be a problem in my own design, Sagatafl, but when I did a thorough analysis of the Task mechanic, I found it to require a lot fewer rolls than I had expected, to the point where it was bearable.

The MH magic system can be analysed in the same way, to find out if big effects are unplayable. My hunch is that it'll be pretty unproblematic, though, although it can well still be a minor culture shock to players who are used to one-roll-only-per-spell as in GURPS Magic.

If it is slightly too slow (keeping in mind that it should take time to generate a powerfull spell), perhaps a tweak to solve that problem could be that on a Critical Success, you add Magery squared to the energy total, instead of adding whatever the RAW says to add (I've forgotten what that is). Crits occur a maximum of 10% of the time (less if effective skill is lower than 16), and AFAIK no PC can have more than Magery 6 in MH. Or you can add Magery-1 squared if less drastic speedup is required.

Or allow a special spellcasting-only Taking Extra Time rule, where each roll takes more time than usual but accumulates x2 or x3 as much energy. That slows things down from the perspective of the character, but from the perspective of the player, fewer dice rolls must be made.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Langy

I will say that I assumed you'd need a different type of Magery to use each one, though. If I could switch between RPM and PBM at will at no cost, sure, I'd go for that, but I don't see it being a huge benefit.

Both do not assume a requirement for magery just various types of benefits if you have it. I am going with that.
The current Path system for this world does not require magery, though that adds to your power. This means that humans can all cast magic if they learn the skills so it is much more of a trade or craft.
Because neither systems require Magery I am saying that if you have it then it applies to both.

But your a vote no so I appreciate that. Not worth a lot of work if most people would never use it which is why I asked.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Both do not assume a requirement for magery just various types of benefits if you have it. I am going with that.
The current Path system for this world does not require magery, though that adds to your power. This means that humans can all cast magic if they learn the skills so it is much more of a trade or craft.
Because neither systems require Magery I am saying that if you have it then it applies to both.

But your a vote no so I appreciate that. Not worth a lot of work if most people would never use it which is why I asked.

Eh; RPM pretty much does require Magery. If you don't have it, you're pretty much more likely to get a critical failure than to ever successfully cast a spell, and critical failures are bad, bad things.


Paul: Big effects in RPM require 10+ rolls, unless you're using the Quick-and-Dirty Charm Creation rules, in which case all effects require 2 rolls.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

How many rolls are typically required to get a big effect?

It takes several rolls to accumulate enough energy for a big spell but there are bonuses for crits and such and you can use your own ER and FP if your in a hurry and that speeds things up.
Other modifiers are talked about and more can be applied based on the game world. The main trick is figuring out what your effective and worthwhile cap is.
You can keep rolling but your going to fail and blow the spell at some point so when do you stop is the big thing a PC has to get used to.